Developing a counter to my magic system

[CountVanBadger]

This is for a book I haven't started working on yet besides making notes for future use, and if I'm smart it'll stay that way for a long time. But I've developed a magic system for my potential-future-WIP pirate isekai story. More importantly for this thread, I've developed a counter for that magic system and I want to run it past some people to see what you think.

So, first, the magic system itself: Sirens, and people with siren ancestry, can speak the Hymn. Words (or Lyrics) in the Hymn are the true names of things, encompassing everything about what that word is, has been, and will ever be, and speaking them gives you power over that thing. There's a whole thing about them carrying around Hymnals that absorb knowledge of the Hymn because just memorizing it would eat away at people's sanity, and the Hymnals will put their users through trials in order to learn new Lyrics, but that's not important here.

So, how do you counter a magic system that, at its core, revolves around sound? With silence. (Warning: this is where it gets weird) The people who aren't able to use the Hymn have discovered a sound frequency that actually absorbs other sounds, and have made what are essentially giant tuning forks that vibrate at that frequency. One tap of their giant tuning fork, and all sound in a certain area (depending on the fork's size) instantly disappears. And if a Siren can't audibly speak their Lyric, they have no power over it.

So...what do you think?

 

[Alski]

*casts counterspell*

 

[Arkus86]

So, how do you counter a magic system that, at its core, revolves around sound? With silence. (Warning: this is where it gets weird) The people who aren't able to use the Hymn have discovered a sound frequency that actually absorbs other sounds, and have made what are essentially giant tuning forks that vibrate at that frequency. One tap of their giant tuning fork, and all sound in a certain area (depending on the fork's size) instantly disappears. And if a Siren can't audibly speak their Lyric, they have no power over it.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but your idea is grounded in real-world physics and is in common use (or you're close enough to the principle at least).

Active noise control - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In other words, go for it.

 

[Alski]

I don't know if you're aware of this, but your idea is grounded in real-world physics and is in common use (or you're close enough to the principle at least).

Active noise control - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In other words, go for it.

The Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei novel used a bunch of similar methods for their counter magic too.

 

[JHarp]

I would probably have gone and mentioned active noise control same as Arkus above but I guess I was slow, so oh well. Time to give a secondary concept.

ANC might work for some specific and powerful words but it depends since it is variable depending on the input, it doesn't just half all noise but uses specific frequencies in opposition, maybe to counter the most powerful/widespread terms and magic but not every single spell with one solution

An alternative for your tuning forks is if they managed to find the word for vacuum or any kind of denial effect allowing for small and localised single effects that can be overpowered by the more flexible active use of the magic system. Then you have a whole list of properties from the material of the tool, to it's size and other things, as well as the effort it takes to activate, having multiple on standby and overuse fracturing them.

Might allow for awkward but usable small defence devices but allow them low durability, while still having proper systems in place in larger locations.


Also as someone fae aligned, words and names are already a fun concept, there are any number of ways to mess with that kind of system, given that people technically can change their name and identifying terms over time, as much as a fixed true name is a cool concept, rarely does it persist over long periods of time without some background fixed system, people aren't really machine IDs you can sequence after all.

 

[CountVanBadger]

they managed to find the word for vacuum or any kind of denial effect

The whole reason they need the tuning forks is because they can't use the Hymn.

 

[JHarp]

The whole reason they need the tuning forks is because they can't use the Hymn.

Yeah and I can't speak most languages fluently, it doesn't stop me hearing them and being able to analyse with a bit of tech the sound frequencies, to tune out a single specific word when spoken in a similar way each time.

Like if someone was really into casting fireball, to use active noise cancelling, which usually requires computers actively understanding the data to work for noise cancellation, to cancel a single type of spell effect.

The point was more about limitations and using the tuning forks as tools for an effect than them suddenly being able to have a 'spellbook of tuning forks' or something.

Because without limitations, you just walk 10 large tuning forks up, carried by a few people each, and shoot all the magic casters with a stack of projectiles, because suddenly they can't use magic to block, they can't use it to breathe underwater or any number of things that a 'cure all' fix would cause.

 

[GlassRose]

I like that, but also consider the opposite: discord. Loud, raucous, disorganized sound that scrambles and drowns out Lyrics. Doesn't matter what you say if you can't be heard over the racket. And it'll disrupt concentration and mess up the mage's rhyrhm and pitch. You could use both that and Silence, maybe silence is a more effective and magical method, and disruptive noise is a kind of macguivered mundane method, that works but is flawed, or maybe they are two equally valid methods with different pros and cons, or they were independently developed and used by different cultures finding different solutions to the same problem, or all of the above!

Also, worldbuilding, consider the implications of how silence and vocal magic would affect culture and habits. If the silence is a common counter magic method, I imagine a robust sign language would develop in order to maintain communication in battle. Or signal flags, or all sorts of things. And if magic is music, how does that affect art? Is music feared for it's magical connotations? Are musicians feared? Distrusted? Worshipped? How is the evolution of styles and music affected by the presence of magic, and how is magic affected by the development and styles of music? Lots of interesting questions you can explore.

And the Silence, the negative frequency, the tuning forks. Could potentially be op negating magic altogether. So possibly, make it dependant on a rare resource. A special frequency that can only be made by processing this rare type of metal or crystal into tuning forks, and then maybe, the type of sound/magic it negates is limited to whatever subsection of magic, whatever frequency, the fork is tuned to, so if you want to negate a broader spectrum of magic, you need multiple forks, something limited to the rich and powerful. And controlling the source is matter of great political importance. You said this is gonna be pirate themed? Maybe this resource is a type of pearl, or extracted from sea snails/slugs (like purple dye used to be!), or otherwise sourced from the ocean/beach, either in general, or specific hotspots, or even just one specific place. Lots of options depending on what suits your fancy.

 

[Jerynboe]

Possibly the tuning fork for active sound cancellation as the quick and dirty option OR is highly targeted to counter certain verses (or at least all verses that integrate the one narrow frequency it counters), but something like a crank operated music box for more complex “countersong” like the discordant mess Glassrose mentioned.

Disruptive to focus instead of antimagic, or perhaps as another possibility the song from the music box is actually Verse played technically perfectly. They were made in an attempt to reproduce siren magic for normies. It doesn’t produce magic, so it’s a failed experiment from that perspective, but it does have some kind of effect that makes magic not work or misfire unpredictably.

 

[Grizzly18]

They already mentioned it but sound can be cancelled out if you invert the amplitude basically causing the soundwave to flitter out. Discordant noise is also a good idea like a louder version of jazz or maybe something extra loud like an airplane engine or a bass speaker. Also look into the quietest room in the world,

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/1at8yqt
people who go in can’t stay for long cause it unnerves people.

Also in a world where sound is magic would people stop speaking and communicate thru some kind of sign language? Would shouting anything in public be akin to shouting fire in a movie theater? Is music an act of violence? I’d be extra careful when building the world of this story. Good luck

 

[TinaMigarlo]

a magic user is high in intelligence and wisdom.
the one thing those people are vulerable to, as powerful as they are.
swift and blinding violence.
you *whisk( a sword across a throat, in a sword-drawing stroke coming out from the scabbard...
no sound.

dead men tell no tales, so i doubt with severed vocal cords, they can HYMN.
a proficient thief or sentry-removal type, would be highly effective at this strategy as well.

but in keeping with the noise-counter theory...
white noise, counters *all* others.
because it contains all frequencies.

what you call "static" (a radio between stations) is white noise in the audible region.
a spark jumping, is "hash noise", IE white noise... in the electromagnetic spectrum.
that's why something arc-ing off, electrically shuts down all communications in the surrounding area.

so a "create loud noise" spell...
and the chosen noise, was "static".
would shut everything down,perfectly.
if you want to make it more "magic-y"...
you could add a "spark" required to make it kill magic in the area.
it could be an effective secret counter weapon developed.
to create a "spark gap" maker...
you only need...
1) conductive metal.
2) battery (lemon juice? potato? runs small clocks... also see "Baghdad Battery")
3) resistor
4) coil of wire
5) capacitor

all things that a competent electronics hobby person, would know how to make.
two thin sheets of metal (conductor) with a non conductive flat layer between could be anything (insulator)
makes a surprisingly effective conductor. as does a "Bell Jar".
I'm talking enough juice to kill you.
anyhoo, the coil and capacitor are touching ends, with a resistor between the battery and this coil tank.
makes a spark generator. with the opposite end of the spark gap, going to ground.

this would shut down magic, if magic was related to the electromagnetic spectrum.
the low intelligence fighters, carrying it around? need not know how it work, just that it does work.


capacitors are the most dangerous thing in electronics, bar none.
a CAP only as big as a disposable lighter? can be enough to kill you.
they store up electricity. then DUMP it all at once.
you can fill a big CAP up with a simple little battery. It just takes time.
but get someone to touch the positive and negative leads, well... you can kill them.
it dumps all at once.
a CAP will *retain* this killing power/ for sometimes years.
that's why old TV sets before the new TV's were so dangerous to leave laying around junkyards.

a "Baghdad Battery" (look it up) would charge a LETHAL capacitor (like a Bell Jar) up
and you could carry it around. anyone could use it, no skill required.
just take the insulation off the positive and negative leads (anode and cathode, to us real life mages)
and its a one shot touch-death system.

science is magic, to the rest of the mere mortals.

 

[CountVanBadger]

Guys, I made this thread so I could get feedback on my idea. Please stop trying to crowbar your own ideas into my book.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Guys, I made this thread so I could get feedback on my idea. Please stop trying to crowbar your own ideas into my book.

It seems ... familiar, like I've run into a very similar concept somewhere before in a fantasy novel or game or something (I think it was one where True Names were used as magic - not just the true names of People but of Things, like to attack someone with fire you needed to know the True Name of Fire itself, and silence prevented the use of any spoken power). And, as someone pointed out above, grounded in science, or close to it.

The "active noise" thing people keep tossing out sounds a lot like the device used by the military to neutralize the psychics in the last season and a half of Stranger Things....

 

[CountVanBadger]

It seems ... familiar, like I've run into a very similar concept somewhere before in a fantasy novel or game or something (I think it was one where True Names were used as magic - not just the true names of People but of Things, like to attack someone with fire you needed to know the True Name of Fire itself, and silence prevented the use of any spoken power). And, as someone pointed out above, grounded in science, or close to it.

Was it The Name of the Wind? Because mine's a little different than that. In NotW, once you know the name, you just know it. In my story, you start off with only minimal knowledge of the name. Since the true name is everything it is, was, and will be, technically the name itself is infinite in length, so all you're really able to do is say a part of it. The deeper your understanding of the thing you're naming gets, the more of the name you're able to say, which in turn gives you more power over it.

 

[Juia_Darkcrest]

Its a fairly unique concept.

I can just see the counter force bringing out their special weapons against it. Arrows that resonate with sounds to interrupt the hymm. A tuning arrow if you will... followed swiftly by a volley of actual arrows.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Was it The Name of the Wind? Because mine's a little different than that. In NotW, once you know the name, you just know it. In my story, you start off with only minimal knowledge of the name. Since the true name is everything it is, was, and will be, technically the name itself is infinite in length, so all you're really able to do is say a part of it. The deeper your understanding of the thing you're naming gets, the more of the name you're able to say, which in turn gives you more power over it.

Could be - was something I stumbled on by accident in the 90s I think, and just barely remember.

 

[Emotica]

I think that sounds incredibly interesting. Did you make that up entirely? The only thing I'd question is how effective can sound dampening be if it isn't also some kind of magic? Did I misinterpret that part? I'd say the idea could overstay it's welcome if there's not more to it, but the idea alone sounds like it has enough potential for a novel or novella. If there are more layers to it, then I think you could expand on the whole concept. The stuff about the sirens I can see being a trilogy, it's just the sound negation that might be a little tiring, and "visually" uninteresting after a while. Not that I don't believe you can make it work. How would you make the climax exciting? Don't say anything if you don't wanna spoil it.

I could be biased though. Sound-based plots, for lack of a better term, can be interesting, but it's a tight bell curve. Quiet Place was a great movie. Then they made several more about... it being silent. I may be focusing way too much on that aspect though. It's got 10/10 potential, so it's really about the execution. Good luck!