[Pointless Rant] The Agony of Reading (Sometimes)

[TheKillingAlice]

Good evening, my Dearly Beloved,
or whoever stumbled in to find a reason for drinking bleach,

​

I'd say I've been a reader in recent years to only few stories online, of which all of them were Webtoons. The only exception was a FanFiction I read with a friend of mine - we often read stories together, to talk about them; to discuss writing patterns or certain themes. We both write, so there's that connecting line. Now, I will soon find myself in a barely koherent, endlessly rambling rant, closer to an essay on literally nothing at all, so if you want to leave, there's the door - there you go, you have been warned.


Anyway, so I have this issue, that I read stories and I just don't give up on them, if I happened to have gone in already. There's this thing with me, that I can never log something in as "dropped", because my brain says that I can't drop something; as long as I don't drop it, I can always resume doing it, even if it takes a decade. I'm prone to quitting things, and I'm also a huge proctrastinator, so this mechanism is one I find solace in - that I don't actually quit, but just "let it rest", so I can always come back to it. As long as I'm still alive, that is.
But it has that massive drawback of, as said, me not being able to drop out on something I have given at least a modicum of my time, because I want to believe that it's going to get better. So, I read this story on a national story archive of my country, which means, no, this isn't about SH and I will not be dropping names, but I will, as a matter of fact, take a huge dump on a single person, which has been robbing me of my mental energy for the better of around three months now, since it took us this long to read two (unfinished) stories of hers to their most recent chapters.
Basically, when I feel uncomfortable in a situation or just really unhappy with something I'm spending my time with, I like make jokes about it, so that I feel better about the situation and get to vent my frustration. That's why I'm probably the person you really don't want to have as a reader - people tend to say all kinds things about how I come off to others when I write, and I guess that's just me not giving a shit, because I won't be glazing your asshole when I review your story. I might, in fact, rip you a new one.
Does not mean I'm a pro writer or anything like that - it's always hardest to determine the faults in what you yourself write down, because you see the scene in front of you and if you didn't like it, you wouldn't have written it down in the first place. But I'm thorough, when I read. And it's not rare for me to write reviews of thousands of words. Mostly, they would up negative, because I don't have much to say, if there's not much there for me to say. But if you put down something really great, you might just have me write a character or progression break down in awe of what you presented, which would also be hundreds or thousands of words long.
Then again, those are rare. But it's also rare for me to write ten to twenty t h o u s a n d words in a single review, spanning just about half your actual story and coming back with another ten thousand for the other half. That's not on me. This was the absolute state of this story that I read. And I still can't believe I did.
And the true infuriating part was that she got me to read another one of her stories, because of my hardwired brain set to finish my business while I still can, when I'm currently not procrastinating, and so I went and read one of her original works. And it ended with me writing a review with more than twentyone thousand words, going into detail, bringing in countless examples of where those issues lie within her story or examples of similar, yet different story beats properly implemented elsewhere to make the stark comparison.
I've done this in the past and I don't do it often - the reason for that being that people won't understand why you would read a story and review it so earnestly. Like, they tell you they didn't actually mean to write a proper story; they just want to have fun. Yeah, guess what - I came to have fun as well. And then your turd hit me in the face. But aside from that, what is somehow not understood, is that I don't actually do that in order to stop the person in question from writing - and I'm conscious as I say this, that my style of writing a review can be very sarcastic; I make constant jokes on behalf of the characters in the story, not just to provide some levity, but also to mirror what happens, to make the author understand the bullshit they created on accident (hopefully).
The thing is: Do people actually believe that I would use up that much of my time and energy to write all of this down, just because I'm petty? And I don't deny at least SOME pettiness in the ensuing tea, but in general, it boggles my mind how you cannot see that I'm trying to point out all the crap in your work so that you can take something away from it. In the end, you don't have to change anything but view on your story; just imagine that you're someone else; try to understand how someone might be able to see the story you wrote from their eyes. It might help you, if not with this story, maybe with the next one you start.

In this specific example, I sat down to read with a friend and then read, and we read, and we read... and we just kept reading, and reading, and reading - because we hoped it would get better. We wanted this to get better; to get somewhere at all. Yet it never did.
In general, I put down a review, because this story was old - like, it's at least a decade old (literally, it's been posted initially in 2016). So I read the first one or two chapters and just pointed out a lot of things that were amiss, but it was not nearly as much as what I wrote when I read like ten-and-then-some chapters to review at once. The very first review I wrote, she actually answered, which I find commendable, if she wasn't happy about it, which was obvious.
But her tone was pretty much "yeah, I know it's bad, but that's just how it is and it will get better later". She completely sat on this statement, that the story would turn out waaaaay better from chapter ten or twelve onwards, but she's aware that the beginning is shit. Well, in that case, why not revise it? You are well aware of the problems and I just pointed most of them out to you as well, but eventhough you returned, to presumably finish this almost-but-not-quite finished story you last updated five years ago, you don't want to actually work on the chapters people have to read first in order to get to the new ones. Make it make sense!
The gall; the laziness; the attitude - it all kind of pissed me off, but I tried to see the bright side. The only thing that really irked me, outside of her sheer lack of will to improve a story she agrees is trash, was that she mentioned how her original works were much better and then there was the classic: "PeOPlE I kNow tOLd Me that I should publish my stuff, because it's that good." And the thing she propped up as her Pièce de Résistance is a crime novel she also shat out in 2016 and last updated in 2018. She literally saw me take her story, fold it into a paper plane, shove it back up where it came from and abort it post partum, just to offer up another one of her children as a sacrifice. I kid you not.
Not only did the preface or end all of her FanFiction chapters on the note of "Please comment and tell me what you thought of the story" (which is very common, so no shade on that - everybody wants some engagement to see if they are doing well or not), but when she did get just that, she bailed out on me with a single, very flimsy reply, in which she claimed (by proxy, don't we love that) to either be good enough to make money off of her stories on an oversaturated market or even get a publishing house to sign up for it.
So, I had to read the other story as well, right? Yes.

We just finished yesterday and I'm still kind of speechless. I'm well aware that it's not the actual last chapter; the story is unfinished, as mentioned somewhere at the beginning of my wall of text. But I'm still in awe. This person is... you know, we really tried to defend it. With the FanFiction - well, I mean, she clearly didn't do well with having to understand and motivate characters by how their personality is set, when the character isn't hers and she doesn't have the freedom to do as she wants. The original work was horrible in so many ways, but especially the crime part was just so bad, like, she couldn't get anything right.
There's an entire corps lying in front of them, with a bullet in his chest and we KNOW he had a brawl with his killers RIGHT before he died - he broke one of the assailants' nose - yet she insists that there are just no clues whatsoever. Couldn't find anything at all. Then one of the main characters gets stabbed through his side, yet somehow no vital organs were harmed. It got better when they doctor just flat out stated that he has been stabbed with a KNIFE that has a blade of around 30 centimeters. Like, to figure that out when the weapon is no longer there, at least that length would have had to impale his waist, so he's either a fatass like me (which he's not) or he was skewered like a table soccer figurine and his organs somehow evaded the blade the way tits in Highschool of the Dead evade bullets in mid air. Of course, one guy was shot, but he apparently only had a single bullet, since they had to stab the other with the... wibbly-wobbly fillet knife? You know that there's, like, around five or six types of knives that are allowed to call themselves "knives" and can potentially be 30 centimeters long? And they're all kitchen based knives; mostly pro chef knives. I should know, I used to sell all kinds of legally purchasable weapons and blades.
I'm not even touching on the fact that the stabbed guy survives just fine but the police keeps walking on eggshells, acting as if he was an actual child (20 years old, btw), not asking a single question, although he is the only witness to a literal murder. Because the policeman, who's the other very special protag, doesn't want to be meanie to that poor little poopoo. Because, I don't know - it's not like that's his job, right?
And this is not even a fraction of the crap in just the first two chapters. It got so bad that we looked into yet another story, to see if crime maybe just wasn't her thing - though, you really shouldn't write something you know virtually nothing about, if you don't want to do any research - but then I saw it had a sort of native / tribal setting. And I turned to my friend: "I don't know about this..."
But he wasn't so cynical. "I mean, it's an entirely different setting, it could be better."
Sure, he's right, but there was something on my mind. "Yes, but, do you believe that she knows how to... do things?" I said, and I was actually getting at the fact that tribal people can't just go to the local supermarket or Diner to get some grub. They have to do quite a lot of things in order to survive and you have to be able to describe that even a little bit, for it to feel like a proper setting and real people. But it was hard to condense a single question, because I questioned her ability to portray any and all of it.
I didn't clarify that, so my friend just paused. When he finally answered, he was like: "You know? It's hard to admit, since the question is so comically broad, but... I still feel like the answer is 'No'."
And it was a beautiful moment of revelation for the both of us. She showed to know so little of anything at all, that, at this point, I'd go so far as to wonder what she can do at all. She writes in a way that makes her seem like the quinessential mouthbreather; if I were to ask her, to cook up a pot of noodles, she'd probably turn her head in my general direction and blink aimlessly with a dead stare behind it. She's not even a Hack - like, Zack Snyder is a Hack.
This person is, in fact, a Hack of All Trades.

But to some up some conclusion that makes sense to anyone but me:
I get it, you might not like a lot of criticism dumped on you. But if you are going on about wanting to publish (no matter if it is about a publishing house or self publishing), you should want to polish up your writing; you should want that engagement, even if it's just to see the perspective and challenge what you think is good. (Which, again, I assume you do, otherwise, why would you write it down?)
In this example, it's especially frustrating, because all of the worst possible traits of authors congeal together into a sticky, rancid mess. She constantly asks for feedback - yet doesn't want it, when it's not positive. She's not even in the realm of those that claim to "just write for their own enjoyment and shouldn't be criticised" (as they write to upload it online, for everyone to see), because she claims to want to publish her stuff for real. She fucking agrees on how shit her story is, yet doesn't want to revise it - instead, she doubles down and adds a line to her synopsis, saying the story is old, but totally gets better in later chapters, so readers should just endure it. And the real kicker is: It's not getting any better. In fact, it's a downward spiral; it's getting WORSE, KAREN, and the whole thing PEAKED at chapter 3 - out of 38!
But again, it's not like this is the first time. I've had a streak of people deleting their stories over truly short, all nice and sugar coated reviews, just because they contained some criticism and then I was made out to the be one at fault. So, again, I kind of stopped giving a shit. It made my life easier.
If I read a story and you fuck up, you will know, because I will tell you in autistic detail; to the point you will see me haunting your stories in your nightmares.
In all honesty, I get it. You get a huge damper on your story and you have to stomach it first. I'm also prone to snapping back by taking every part of the criticism apart - I also tend to show the scenes in question to people who I know and they know I write, but they don't know the story, so that I get actual reactions to it, to see if the reader in question was right. Even if I end up not seeing merit in any of the things stated, I will still read every word, keep it in mind and, upon the next revision, I will factor in what was said and tweak some lines, for example, to make sure there really isn't anyone misunderstanding this certain thing or whatever. And I'm headstrong as fuck, and on top of that, I'm needlessly proud. So I wouldn't just take something lying down, yet even I can do that much, because I care about my stories. Reacting like this is not someone "feeling bullied, just wanting to write their stories, without someone rude coming along to shit on it", but it feels rather like they don't give a single shit.
And that is... pretty sad.

Oh, and here is something that policeman MC really reminded me of. Just to round up this endless wall of nothingness.

 

[Anonjohn20]

they just want to have fun. Yeah, guess what - I came to have fun as well. And then your turd hit me in the face.

This person could probably roast as well as Tempokai does. A real talent. 10/10

 

[JordanIda]

This isn't a roast. It's rare and brutal honesty.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Good evening, my Dearly Beloved,
or whoever stumbled in to find a reason for drinking bleach,

​

I'd say I've been a reader in recent years to only few stories online, of which all of them were Webtoons. The only exception was a FanFiction I read with a friend of mine - we often read stories together, to talk about them; to discuss writing patterns or certain themes. We both write, so there's that connecting line. Now, I will soon find myself in a barely koherent, endlessly rambling rant, closer to an essay on literally nothing at all, so if you want to leave, there's the door - there you go, you have been warned.


Anyway, so I have this issue, that I read stories and I just don't give up on them, if I happened to have gone in already. There's this thing with me, that I can never log something in as "dropped", because my brain says that I can't drop something; as long as I don't drop it, I can always resume doing it, even if it takes a decade. I'm prone to quitting things, and I'm also a huge proctrastinator, so this mechanism is one I find solace in - that I don't actually quit, but just "let it rest", so I can always come back to it. As long as I'm still alive, that is.
But it has that massive drawback of, as said, me not being able to drop out on something I have given at least a modicum of my time, because I want to believe that it's going to get better. So, I read this story on a national story archive of my country, which means, no, this isn't about SH and I will not be dropping names, but I will, as a matter of fact, take a huge dump on a single person, which has been robbing me of my mental energy for the better of around three months now, since it took us this long to read two (unfinished) stories of hers to their most recent chapters.
Basically, when I feel uncomfortable in a situation or just really unhappy with something I'm spending my time with, I like make jokes about it, so that I feel better about the situation and get to vent my frustration. That's why I'm probably the person you really don't want to have as a reader - people tend to say all kinds things about how I come off to others when I write, and I guess that's just me not giving a shit, because I won't be glazing your asshole when I review your story. I might, in fact, rip you a new one.
Does not mean I'm a pro writer or anything like that - it's always hardest to determine the faults in what you yourself write down, because you see the scene in front of you and if you didn't like it, you wouldn't have written it down in the first place. But I'm thorough, when I read. And it's not rare for me to write reviews of thousands of words. Mostly, they would up negative, because I don't have much to say, if there's not much there for me to say. But if you put down something really great, you might just have me write a character or progression break down in awe of what you presented, which would also be hundreds or thousands of words long.
Then again, those are rare. But it's also rare for me to write ten to twenty t h o u s a n d words in a single review, spanning just about half your actual story and coming back with another ten thousand for the other half. That's not on me. This was the absolute state of this story that I read. And I still can't believe I did.
And the true infuriating part was that she got me to read another one of her stories, because of my hardwired brain set to finish my business while I still can, when I'm currently not procrastinating, and so I went and read one of her original works. And it ended with me writing a review with more than twentyone thousand words, going into detail, bringing in countless examples of where those issues lie within her story or examples of similar, yet different story beats properly implemented elsewhere to make the stark comparison.
I've done this in the past and I don't do it often - the reason for that being that people won't understand why you would read a story and review it so earnestly. Like, they tell you they didn't actually mean to write a proper story; they just want to have fun. Yeah, guess what - I came to have fun as well. And then your turd hit me in the face. But aside from that, what is somehow not understood, is that I don't actually do that in order to stop the person in question from writing - and I'm conscious as I say this, that my style of writing a review can be very sarcastic; I make constant jokes on behalf of the characters in the story, not just to provide some levity, but also to mirror what happens, to make the author understand the bullshit they created on accident (hopefully).
The thing is: Do people actually believe that I would use up that much of my time and energy to write all of this down, just because I'm petty? And I don't deny at least SOME pettiness in the ensuing tea, but in general, it boggles my mind how you cannot see that I'm trying to point out all the crap in your work so that you can take something away from it. In the end, you don't have to change anything but view on your story; just imagine that you're someone else; try to understand how someone might be able to see the story you wrote from their eyes. It might help you, if not with this story, maybe with the next one you start.

In this specific example, I sat down to read with a friend and then read, and we read, and we read... and we just kept reading, and reading, and reading - because we hoped it would get better. We wanted this to get better; to get somewhere at all. Yet it never did.
In general, I put down a review, because this story was old - like, it's at least a decade old (literally, it's been posted initially in 2016). So I read the first one or two chapters and just pointed out a lot of things that were amiss, but it was not nearly as much as what I wrote when I read like ten-and-then-some chapters to review at once. The very first review I wrote, she actually answered, which I find commendable, if she wasn't happy about it, which was obvious.
But her tone was pretty much "yeah, I know it's bad, but that's just how it is and it will get better later". She completely sat on this statement, that the story would turn out waaaaay better from chapter ten or twelve onwards, but she's aware that the beginning is shit. Well, in that case, why not revise it? You are well aware of the problems and I just pointed most of them out to you as well, but eventhough you returned, to presumably finish this almost-but-not-quite finished story you last updated five years ago, you don't want to actually work on the chapters people have to read first in order to get to the new ones. Make it make sense!
The gall; the laziness; the attitude - it all kind of pissed me off, but I tried to see the bright side. The only thing that really irked me, outside of her sheer lack of will to improve a story she agrees is trash, was that she mentioned how her original works were much better and then there was the classic: "PeOPlE I kNow tOLd Me that I should publish my stuff, because it's that good." And the thing she propped up as her Pièce de Résistance is a crime novel she also shat out in 2016 and last updated in 2018. She literally saw me take her story, fold it into a paper plane, shove it back up where it came from and abort it post partum, just to offer up another one of her children as a sacrifice. I kid you not.
Not only did the preface or end all of her FanFiction chapters on the note of "Please comment and tell me what you thought of the story" (which is very common, so no shade on that - everybody wants some engagement to see if they are doing well or not), but when she did get just that, she bailed out on me with a single, very flimsy reply, in which she claimed (by proxy, don't we love that) to either be good enough to make money off of her stories on an oversaturated market or even get a publishing house to sign up for it.
So, I had to read the other story as well, right? Yes.

We just finished yesterday and I'm still kind of speechless. I'm well aware that it's not the actual last chapter; the story is unfinished, as mentioned somewhere at the beginning of my wall of text. But I'm still in awe. This person is... you know, we really tried to defend it. With the FanFiction - well, I mean, she clearly didn't do well with having to understand and motivate characters by how their personality is set, when the character isn't hers and she doesn't have the freedom to do as she wants. The original work was horrible in so many ways, but especially the crime part was just so bad, like, she couldn't get anything right.
There's an entire corps lying in front of them, with a bullet in his chest and we KNOW he had a brawl with his killers RIGHT before he died - he broke one of the assailants' nose - yet she insists that there are just no clues whatsoever. Couldn't find anything at all. Then one of the main characters gets stabbed through his side, yet somehow no vital organs were harmed. It got better when they doctor just flat out stated that he has been stabbed with a KNIFE that has a blade of around 30 centimeters. Like, to figure that out when the weapon is no longer there, at least that length would have had to impale his waist, so he's either a fatass like me (which he's not) or he was skewered like a table soccer figurine and his organs somehow evaded the blade the way tits in Highschool of the Dead evade bullets in mid air. Of course, one guy was shot, but he apparently only had a single bullet, since they had to stab the other with the... wibbly-wobbly fillet knife? You know that there's, like, around five or six types of knives that are allowed to call themselves "knives" and can potentially be 30 centimeters long? And they're all kitchen based knives; mostly pro chef knives. I should know, I used to sell all kinds of legally purchasable weapons and blades.
I'm not even touching on the fact that the stabbed guy survives just fine but the police keeps walking on eggshells, acting as if he was an actual child (20 years old, btw), not asking a single question, although he is the only witness to a literal murder. Because the policeman, who's the other very special protag, doesn't want to be meanie to that poor little poopoo. Because, I don't know - it's not like that's his job, right?
And this is not even a fraction of the crap in just the first two chapters. It got so bad that we looked into yet another story, to see if crime maybe just wasn't her thing - though, you really shouldn't write something you know virtually nothing about, if you don't want to do any research - but then I saw it had a sort of native / tribal setting. And I turned to my friend: "I don't know about this..."
But he wasn't so cynical. "I mean, it's an entirely different setting, it could be better."
Sure, he's right, but there was something on my mind. "Yes, but, do you believe that she knows how to... do things?" I said, and I was actually getting at the fact that tribal people can't just go to the local supermarket or Diner to get some grub. They have to do quite a lot of things in order to survive and you have to be able to describe that even a little bit, for it to feel like a proper setting and real people. But it was hard to condense a single question, because I questioned her ability to portray any and all of it.
I didn't clarify that, so my friend just paused. When he finally answered, he was like: "You know? It's hard to admit, since the question is so comically broad, but... I still feel like the answer is 'No'."
And it was a beautiful moment of revelation for the both of us. She showed to know so little of anything at all, that, at this point, I'd go so far as to wonder what she can do at all. She writes in a way that makes her seem like the quinessential mouthbreather; if I were to ask her, to cook up a pot of noodles, she'd probably turn her head in my general direction and blink aimlessly with a dead stare behind it. She's not even a Hack - like, Zack Snyder is a Hack.
This person is, in fact, a Hack of All Trades.

But to some up some conclusion that makes sense to anyone but me:
I get it, you might not like a lot of criticism dumped on you. But if you are going on about wanting to publish (no matter if it is about a publishing house or self publishing), you should want to polish up your writing; you should want that engagement, even if it's just to see the perspective and challenge what you think is good. (Which, again, I assume you do, otherwise, why would you write it down?)
In this example, it's especially frustrating, because all of the worst possible traits of authors congeal together into a sticky, rancid mess. She constantly asks for feedback - yet doesn't want it, when it's not positive. She's not even in the realm of those that claim to "just write for their own enjoyment and shouldn't be criticised" (as they write to upload it online, for everyone to see), because she claims to want to publish her stuff for real. She fucking agrees on how shit her story is, yet doesn't want to revise it - instead, she doubles down and adds a line to her synopsis, saying the story is old, but totally gets better in later chapters, so readers should just endure it. And the real kicker is: It's not getting any better. In fact, it's a downward spiral; it's getting WORSE, KAREN, and the whole thing PEAKED at chapter 3 - out of 38!
But again, it's not like this is the first time. I've had a streak of people deleting their stories over truly short, all nice and sugar coated reviews, just because they contained some criticism and then I was made out to the be one at fault. So, again, I kind of stopped giving a shit. It made my life easier.
If I read a story and you fuck up, you will know, because I will tell you in autistic detail; to the point you will see me haunting your stories in your nightmares.
In all honesty, I get it. You get a huge damper on your story and you have to stomach it first. I'm also prone to snapping back by taking every part of the criticism apart - I also tend to show the scenes in question to people who I know and they know I write, but they don't know the story, so that I get actual reactions to it, to see if the reader in question was right. Even if I end up not seeing merit in any of the things stated, I will still read every word, keep it in mind and, upon the next revision, I will factor in what was said and tweak some lines, for example, to make sure there really isn't anyone misunderstanding this certain thing or whatever. And I'm headstrong as fuck, and on top of that, I'm needlessly proud. So I wouldn't just take something lying down, yet even I can do that much, because I care about my stories. Reacting like this is not someone "feeling bullied, just wanting to write their stories, without someone rude coming along to shit on it", but it feels rather like they don't give a single shit.
And that is... pretty sad.

Oh, and here is something that policeman MC really reminded me of. Just to round up this endless wall of nothingness.

I have a fanfic too~! I wonder what the lesson might be, though?

 

[Eldoria]

Dude... your paragraph is gigantic, it's bigger than my phone screen. If this were a fictional narrative, I'd suggest cutting it down to shorter paragraphs for easier reading. Lol

 

[JordanIda]

The length is perfect.

Ensures that the writers won't read it.

They beg, and beg, and beg. "Dearest darlingest reader, puhleeeeaaasssee tell me what you really think."

But they don't want that. Not at all.

It's the last thing they want.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

The length is perfect.

Ensures that the writers won't read it.

They beg, and beg, and beg. "Dearest darlingest reader, puhleeeeaaassseed tell me what you really think."

But they don't want that. Not at all.

It's the last thing they want.

The thing is: I ranted this down from the perspective of a reader, but I'm also a writer. And it simply won't ever be logical to me, how these things happen - even if it's brutal; even if you don't want to change anything, it's at least the opinion of one person and that person might have intellectual friends.
In other words, as I always say, "Nobody's that unique," there WILL be someone thinking just like you and that works for everyone.
There will be something to learn, and even if it's just that some people won't properly read and you might have to try being more clear, without pissing off the readers that don't have the reading comprehension of a shimpansee with testicular fungus on a typewriter.
I love getting long reviews, because someone put in some effort. Some people I just don't get.

 

[JordanIda]

Someone ought to write a book about the web novel movement's genesis.

E-novels started before the Web, in TCP-IP bulletin boards and news servers. Havens for fan fiction and p@rn that would never pass editorial review and had no other outlet. Before places like this, there were the giant story sites that germinated from BIX. And with the world wide web, those old boards transferred to websites like asstr.

They're all gone now. First they killed the mainstream trades. Then they killed the novel itself. Now they're choking on their own vomit.

But knowing how this movement got its start helps one to understand it.

Quality was never an objective in such places.

The goal of smut is and always has been to induce an endorphin rush in seven minutes or less. Nothing less, and nothing more.

 

[Time4T]

Constructive criticism is one thing. A multi thousand word angry rant is something else. The author in your example is obviously so far from competent that no amount of constructive criticism is going to be helpful. So what were you actually doing? Telling somebody they're fat and ugly then questioning why they're coming to a public beach, even when true, isn't being helpful, it's being cruel.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

Constructive criticism is one thing. A multi thousand word angry rant is something else. The author in your example is obviously so far from competent that no amount of constructive criticism is going to be helpful. So what were you actually doing? Telling somebody they're fat and ugly then questioning why they're coming to a public beach, even when true, isn't being helpful, it's being cruel.

What I was doing?
I was quoting parts of relevance to give her examples, told her what she did well and didn't do so well, how her characters reflect on their original character. For example (it was a FanFiction): You have a character who has a more arrogant and not very people-pleasing nature; he often skips school. He's very much a classic "rebel" (Fandom is btw a browser Otome game, and not the best in the world either). He doesn't give much of a shit about anyone.
The very first chapter is from his perspective, it doesn't have a single word of spoken dialogue, just a first person rambling about what happened all day, not matter what it was or if he was even around when it happened in the Canon; he just thinks about all these things and rants about, when none of it has any bearing on his life and the wouldn't given a shit. As he always does. Therefore, I explained to her why it came off as odd, that his entire seems to be full with this completely irrelevant information. The reason for why it happened, was the fact that she lacked a narrator, thus she used her characters to do the narration for her, even when they didn't have any way of achieving that, without being massaviely out of character.
When I say I tear people a new asshole, it means I literally go into detail about everything that I found and remembered or noted somewhere. I build up a structure to tackle every part in sequences.
The same for the rest of the story. So what you're saying is, I'm not allowed to make long comments, which take this long because I explain, explain, explain and bring in one example after another, because it's long and it's criticism and since she's not going to get any better, it's being cruel.
Yeah, no.

EDIT: Just for anyone doom scrolling by here and finding this... can we agree that the given example is, well, dogshit?
Like, I'm fat, and I agree, I don't see why random people should comment on my looks, because it's not their concern and most people don't give a crap, because they aren't concerned. If I go to a beach, I can't go there without my fat ass.
But if I write a story, just for me, I can write it, show it to friends and family and be happy and done with it. If I write and post it online, I open it up to criticism. It's then posted there in order to attract readers from all over the place and obviously, people will have things to say about it, because it was meant for them to be read; I don't go to the beach for others to see me, but in order to swim - and if I drag myself there, I know that people will judge me and if I can't take that, I won't go to the beach.
Still, insulting someone on a beach is a personal insult. It's basically saying a thorough but not positive, maybe even harsh critique is the same as being personally insulted to the face. Criticism of a story is just that. If you don't want to read it, you don't have to read it - in fact, I am not saying that the author is shit, because I wouldn't know that and I posted this rant here, of all places, because she won't be here and the story isn't even in English; I didn't even mention the Fandom or the exact archive I mean, though it would be easy to guess for someone from my country; if you know, you know.

 

[Time4T]

What I was doing?
I was quoting parts of relevance to give her examples, told her what she did well and didn't do so well, how her characters reflect on their original character. For example (it was a FanFiction): You have a character who has a more arrogant and not very people-pleasing nature; he often skips school. He's very much a classic "rebel" (Fandom is btw a browser Otome game, and not the best in the world either). He doesn't give much of a shit about anyone.
The very first chapter is from his perspective, it doesn't have a single word of spoken dialogue, just a first person rambling about what happened all day, not matter what it was or if he was even around when it happened in the Canon; he just thinks about all these things and rants about, when none of it has any bearing on his life and the wouldn't given a shit. As he always does. Therefore, I explained to her why it came off as odd, that his entire seems to be full with this completely irrelevant information. The reason for why it happened, was the fact that she lacked a narrator, thus she used her characters to do the narration for her, even when they didn't have any way of achieving that, without being massaviely out of character.
When I say I tear people a new asshole, it means I literally go into detail about everything that I found and remembered or noted somewhere. I build up a structure to tackle every part in sequences.
The same for the rest of the story. So what you're saying is, I'm not allowed to make long comments, which take this long because I explain, explain, explain and bring in one example after another, because it's long and it's criticism and since she's not going to get any better, it's being cruel.
Yeah, no.

What you described her as was worse than a hack, I believe. So what were you hoping to accomplish? It's not the length of your comments. It's the intent behind them. You then complained about her inability to take criticism... I think that's a skill we all can learn.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

What you described her as was worse than a hack, I believe. So what were you hoping to accomplish? It's not the length of your comments. It's the intent behind them. You then complained about her inability to take criticism... I think that's a skill we all can learn.

Yes, so after reading two stories, that's the feeling we came to, after skimming over another. And no, I do not plan to actually read or review it. But as she wanted me to look at the other, I felt compelled to do so, believing it could be better. As you saw, one of her issues was keeping in character.
And actually, even if I just ranted, after giving her a comparatively small review first, which I explained above, she said she was pursuing writing on a higher level. So, because I came to that conclusion, after I went through the story and it ended on the worst of all canon; it was like the other story, in that it started a bit cute, like a lot of logical mishaps, but those were at least so bad it was funny, and then it really just went worse.
Why should I not go through it? Because you think it's cruel to tell someone where the problems lie, when they don't seem to listen?
No, THAT'S the type of advice that causes readers to just not comment or review at all. Thanks, bro.

 

[Time4T]

Yes, so after reading two stories, that's the feeling we came to, after skimming over another. And no, I do not plan to actually read or review it. But as she wanted me to look at the other, I felt compelled to do so, believing it could be better. As you saw, one of her issues was keeping in character.
And actually, even if I just ranted, after giving her a comparatively small review first, which I explained above, she said she was pursuing writing on a higher level. So, because I came to that conclusion, after I went through the story and it ended on the worst of all canon; it was like the other story, in that it started a bit cute, like a lot of logical mishaps, but those were at least so bad it was funny, and then it really just went worse.
Why should I not go through it? Because you think it's cruel to tell someone where the problems lie, when they don't seem to listen?
No, THAT'S the type of advice that causes readers to just not comment or review at all. Thanks, bro.

Some people are good at things, some people aren't. Even if you think it was a lack of effort. If you thought informing her of what you saw as shortcomings was going to improve her writing, then I guess you were doing good. But if you were just pointing out how horrible she is, then you were just being cruel. If I can point out something that I think might have been an oversight, I will. But I think authors see their stories as their children. And telling the parents that their child is a wart filled abomination is wrong.

My feelings are that even stories I didn't like took somebody time and effort to create. I try to be respectful of that. When I can't do that, then I simply stop reading and move on, no comment.

I may be risking being unhelpful. But better that than being hurtful.

Different viewpoints I guess, so agree to disagree.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

Some people are good at things, some people aren't. Even if you think it was a lack of effort. If you thought informing her of what you saw as shortcomings was going to improve her writing, then I guess you were doing good. But if you were just pointing out how horrible she is, then you were just being cruel.

Right, because it takes me thousands of words to simply say "You're shit - go kick rocks, or something." Sure.
So yes, my reviews are long. But they are not cruel. If they were, they would be really, really, reallly short and very easy to read.

If I can point out something that I think might have been an oversight, I will. But I think authors see their stories as their children. And telling the parents that their child is a wart filled abomination is wrong.

Did you even read the actual post? I know it's long, but if you haven't even read it, don't comment on it, as if you had an actual based opinion.
I even made the call, because of that thinking, to point out how she "offered up another one of her children to be sacrificed".
I'm a writer as well - you think I don't put in effort or care about my stories? It's like that for everyone. And yet, criticism is vital, especially if you care; especially if you actually put in effort.

My feelings are that even stories I didn't like took somebody time and effort to create. I try to be respectful of that. When I can't do that, then I simply stop reading and move on, no comment.

So, you're basically saying that I'm cruel for putting in effort. Because I don't respect enough the "effort" of someone writing a shitty story and wanting to hear none of it, when they posted the story online, for the whole world to see. They want people to see it; they want people to read it; they want the engagement with their readers - yet if they don't like criticism, it's somehow disrespectful to call out their shortcomings.
Are you reading your own words?

I may be risking being unhelpful. But better that than being hurtful.

This isn't hurtful - but you sure are correct about not being helpful. If you're someone who doesn't give a shit, how could it hurt you? And if you care, why would you blame the one criticising, instead of working on improving yourself? Even if you don't like the way I criticise, it doesn't devalue the points I make or the examples I give.
And if you simply can't take criticism, posting something that makes you vulnerable online is literally the dumbest idea you could ever have. If all you want is some positive affirmation, you should hire a motivational trainer.

Different viewpoints I guess, so agree to disagree.

Sure we can agree to disagree, but it will never not irk me to see people like you. Because you are, in fact, most likely the type of writer I was lamenting about in my post.

 

[Time4T]

Dude, if you can't see how aggressive and confrontational your comments are no wonder your "frendly advice" isn't wanted. And yes, I read your whole rant, in it's entirety. But since you seem unable to agree to disagree without anger, maybe ignoring would be best. Have a nice day.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

Dude, if you can't see how aggressive and confrontational your comments are no wonder your "frendly advice" isn't wanted. And yes, I read your whole rant, in it's entirety. But since you seem unable to agree to disagree without anger, maybe ignoring would be best. Have a nice day.

Right now? "Aggressive and confrontational" is what I'm being on purpose. Did you fail to realize that?

No, we definitely agree to disagree, but you came in, accusing people of some sort of disrespect, while likely not even actually reading the story - which is, funnily enough, what you claimed NOT to do. But apparently, people writing stuff only costs time and effort when it's a work of creative writing of some form.

Post Scriptum note (others would say "EDIT"): "Friendly advice" - has it ever occured to you, that reading a story and then going through the motions of putting a logical throughline in everything doesn't only take effort but also needs the reader to think about the story more than anyone else, in order to actually grasp what went wrong and how? It doesn't have to be friendly, it's not even advice. It's just pointing out what's good and what's not. Even if I was writing a review exactly the same way I'm writing a literal rant... what would it matter, as long as I'm actually giving examples, explaining everything, coming to conclusions?
And yes, I love people who read something and immediately go "If you're writing like this, to me, who annoyed you, I'm sure that you're like this everywhere" - the type of people who will cry about absolutely everything and anything.

 

[Anonjohn20]

@RepresentingWrath @SRB @RedMuffin The request has been fulfilled.

 

[JordanIda]

Surreal conversation.

Reviews, like every other succession of words, want to be read. Reviews are entitled to engage, entertain and regale readers. This one, while in some respects admittedly over the top by design, not only delivers for entertainment but also assuredly eclipses its subject matter.

The review is not only entertaining but also brutally honest.

Some will take umbrage. To be expected. They can take their umbrage and wallow in it.

I suppose people in places like this -- places typified by quid pro quo "shout-outs," perfunctory encouragements, and "review swaps"-- don't know what to make of real reviews and are compelled by their predispositions and ignorance to respond viscerally and take offense at them.

After all, virtually all of the writers are here precisely to avoid peer review and editorial vetting. Of course we don't know what real reviews are. Most of us are here-- virtually all, in point of fact-- precisely because our work cannot withstand them. If our work were capable of circulating in the mainstream, where real reviews live, that is where we would be.

 

[TheKillingAlice]

Surreal conversation.

Reviews, like every other succession of words, want to be read. Reviews are entitled to engage, entertain and regale readers. This one, while in some respects admittedly over the top by design, not only delivers for entertainment but also assuredly eclipses its subject matter.

The review is not only entertaining but also brutally honest.

Some will take umbrage. To be expected. They can take their umbrage and wallow in it.

I suppose people in places like this -- places typified by quid pro quo "shout-outs," perfunctory encouragements, and "review swaps"-- don't know what to make of real reviews and are compelled by their predispositions and ignorance to response viscerally and take offense at them.

After all, virtually all of the writers are here precisely to avoid peer review and editorial vetting. Of course we don't know what real reviews are. Most of us are here-- virtually all, in point of fact-- precisely because our work cannot withstand them. If our work were capable of circulating in the mainstream, where real reviews live, that is where we would be.

Indeed. A lot of people don't think much of it, but if you actually paid for something, you criticism gets a lot harsher.
Like, just check out Amazon, for god's sake. Depending on what you're looking for, it's a fucking battlefield. And I love it.

@RepresentingWrath @SRB @RedMuffin The request has been fulfilled.

Request? Whose?

 

[JordanIda]

I was a writer.

Now I'm just a reader.