What is and isn't wish fulfillment?

[ThisAdamGuy]

Sorry for posting two threads so close together, but this is kinda piggybacking off my other one. I was thinking about what it was that drew people to the harem genre, and the obvious answer is that it's pure wish fulfillment. I'm fine with wish fulfillment, and think it's a key part of storytelling as a concept. Even if a character's story is horribly tragic, there's a part of us that wants to experience that for ourselves, or else we wouldn't want to read about it. That makes it wish fulfillment. We don't call something like Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time wish fulfillment, but books with harems or OP main characters are. Books like Harry Potter and Twilight might or might not be wish fulfillment, depending on who you ask. So I'm curious, when do you think a story crosses the line between "just a normal story" to "wish fulfillment fantasy"?

For me, I think it's when it becomes obvious that the author cares more about the destination than the journey. The main character might train to get stronger, but the process of getting stronger isn't as important as being strong, if you get what I mean. The hero doesn't meet women to flesh out the world and provide insight into themselves or the other characters, they're just there to justify a slightly different flavor of spice than what the hero already has available.

If the author can make the journey itself feel like an important and well thought out part of the story, then it doesn't qualify as wish fulfillment to me. Or at least not pure wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment stories will either fast forward through the boring parts to give the hero what they want, or it'll skip them entirely. Like in Dungeon Diving 101, Ken has two hot classmates practically begging to be his girlfriend after just knowing him for a couple days. Then after scoring with them, a monster drops a ring, he bends down to pick it up, and in doing so inadvertently asks the elf princess (who he conveniently failed to notice up to that point) to marry him, causing her to instantly fall in love with him too.

On the other hand, Rand has a three-girl harem by the end of WOT, but it's obvious to anyone who's read it that the whole story wasn't written just to justify giving him that harem. So while it shares certain things with the harem genre, it's a story with a harem, and not a harem story.

Where do you guys draw the line?

 

[Gray_Mann]

Like in Dungeon Diving 101, Ken has two hot classmates practically begging to be his girlfriend after just knowing him for a couple days. Then after scoring with them, a monster drops a ring, he bends down to pick it up, and in doing so inadvertently asks the elf princess (who he conveniently failed to notice up to that point) to marry him, causing her to instantly fall in love with him too.

Yep, that's pure wish fulfillment. Personally, I find nothing wrong with it either. People crying about harem's in stories are obnoxious twats to me who cause more drama than the writer of the harem themselves ever did. One of my favorite webnovels is the The Storm King written by Warden. Over 1,600+ chapters and counting, he has 4 wives and a potential #5 seems to be looming in the background due to some political machinations and good ole plain seduction. The first wife comes relatively early, the second one a few hundred chapters later, the 3rd wife was close friends with the 1st and the 4th is one that none of the other wives liked initially though grew to appreciate in time.

It took time, but I enjoyed the process. The author says there won't be a 5th wife, but he's really playing the #5 card hard here, and considering who she is, I doubt she'll be killed off....and authors abruptly change their minds about previous statements and promises made, very frequently.

Another example of what people would call wish fulfillment is pretty much any OP protagonist story who stomps everyone and gets whatever girl(s) in the end. Some are awful, but some are good.

I guess I draw the line at where it stops being enjoyable. I'm a big history buff. Have currently, 6 shelves and working on a 7th, with nothing but history books. In short, I read more non-fiction than fiction. So, sometimes realism can ruin my enjoyment of a story.

However, if the absurd can maintain the enjoyment factor within me, loud enough to overcome my inner-realist in regards to fiction, than ANYTHING goes really. Not the best judgement, but an accurate assessment of mine.

 

[Juia_Darkcrest]

hmm....

For me, yes wish fulfilment is why I write in the harem genre. Need to catch the Pokémon and all that.

That said, just writing it as smut just so my MC has a bunch of holes really doesn't interest me. I want to develop the story, build relationships, have the personality conflicts arise due to gaining so many women. (I think I did this too fast in one of my works, the others have better pacing from the practice I gained in the first one.)

How can I incorporate a reason to have so many women with the MC? How do I progress the story when they start having children? Can I make this realistic? (Poly was a thing for much of human existence so it isn't that far fetched in a fantasy setting. In the modern era or a sci-fi future though, it would look differently wouldn't it?)

My line is if the guy walks into the room and suddenly has half a dozen women willing to drop their pants just because he is hot, rich or whatever... Unless he was picking up a few drunk chick at the club, that isn't a realistic thing.

 

[Eldoria]

So I'm curious, when do you think a story crosses the line between "just a normal story" to "wish fulfillment fantasy"?

A story is considered wishfulfillment if the focus is on how the world submits to the protagonist and fulfills his desires, rather than how the protagonist adapts to the world.

We know many protagonists (especially in the isekai genre) who obtain cheats, systems, privileges, or special things that are unique to them. From there, the protagonist easily conquers the world, gaining wealth, power, and a harem, even with minimal sacrifice.

Stories like this clearly satisfy the ego of the author (and the readers who enjoy them) because desires or fantasies that are impossible (or difficult) to achieve in the real world are realized in fiction.

If a story wants to avoid wishfulfillment, it must operate on at least the logic of exchange. That at least results require effort. That not every effort is fruitful. There are risks and the possibility of failure in trying. The protagonist can lose, win, or even die. Without a price paid in the struggle, fiction will fall into wishfulfillment stories that are momentarily satisfying but empty of meaning.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

How can I incorporate a reason to have so many women with the MC?

That's another thing that bothered me about DD101. It tries to justify everyone having a harem by saying that's just the natural progression of a dungeon party spending so much time together in such dangerous conditions. But then it never explains why a dungeon party has to consist of one man and a dozen women, or why, if that is the only way to form a party, an all-girls school like the one Ken ends up going to would even exist.

 

[Juia_Darkcrest]

That's another thing that bothered me about DD101. It tries to justify everyone having a harem by saying that's just the natural progression of a dungeon party spending so much time together in such dangerous conditions. But then it never explains why a dungeon party has to consist of one man and a dozen women, or why, if that is the only way to form a party, an all-girls school like the one Ken ends up going to would even exist.

In my works, I explain why there are more women around (sometimes anyways) due to wars. Men predominantly are the ones dying in these worlds, either as soldiers or adventurers, reducing the male populations significantly, sometime crippling an entire generation. The remaining men end up with multiple wives just to help increase the population.

In the sci-fi world, i haven't revealed it yet, but there was a bioweapon that the enemy insectoid race launched 100 years ago whose unintended side effects ended up reducing the number of males being born making the ratios around 5-1.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

In my works, I explain why there are more women around (sometimes anyways) due to wars. Men predominantly are the ones dying in these worlds, either as soldiers or adventurers, reducing the male populations significantly, sometime crippling an entire generation. The remaining men end up with multiple wives just to help increase the population.

In the sci-fi world, i haven't revealed it yet, but there was a bioweapon that the enemy insectoid race launched 100 years ago whose unintended side effects ended up reducing the number of males being born making the ratios around 5-1.

Yeah, it was more the shoddy worldbuilding that bothered me there than anything. It's clear the author went into the story wanting the MC to have a harem, but didn't want to put anymore thought into it than he absolutely had to. Like I said, I'm not interested in writing harems l, but I can come up with a better justification for one right off the top of my head: women have the ability to use magic, but their bodies don't generate the mana they need to cast spells. Men's bodies generate mana, but they can't use it to cast spells. So a man will party up with multiple women--how many depends on how much mana he naturally generates--and forms a sort of soul-bond with them to let them access his mana. But because of the bonding process, the women will start to develop feelings for the man since he's literally now an extension of themselves.

Huh. Maybe I should try writing a harem story. It's not like I'm using all this integrity for anything.

 

[Juia_Darkcrest]

Yeah, it was more the shoddy worldbuilding that bothered me there than anything. It's clear the author went into the story wanting the MC to have a harem, but didn't want to put anymore thought into it than he absolutely had to. Like I said, I'm not interested in writing harems l, but I can come up with a better justification for one right off the top of my head: women have the ability to use magic, but their bodies don't generate the mana they need to cast spells. Men's bodies generate mana, but they can't use it to cast spells. So a man will party up with multiple women--how many depends on how much mana he naturally generates--and forms a sort of soul-bond with them to let them access his mana. But because of the bonding process, the women will start to develop feelings for the man since he's literally now an extension of themselves.

Huh. Maybe I should try writing a harem story. It's not like I'm using all this integrity for anything.

id read it

Yeah, it was more the shoddy worldbuilding that bothered me there than anything. It's clear the author went into the story wanting the MC to have a harem, but didn't want to put anymore thought into it than he absolutely had to. Like I said, I'm not interested in writing harems l, but I can come up with a better justification for one right off the top of my head: women have the ability to use magic, but their bodies don't generate the mana they need to cast spells. Men's bodies generate mana, but they can't use it to cast spells. So a man will party up with multiple women--how many depends on how much mana he naturally generates--and forms a sort of soul-bond with them to let them access his mana. But because of the bonding process, the women will start to develop feelings for the man since he's literally now an extension of themselves.

Huh. Maybe I should try writing a harem story. It's not like I'm using all this integrity for anything.

actually, this reminds me of the anime Hybrid X Hearts. Borderline hentai...the MC can recharge the women who fight with there power armour with sexual energy... there is more to it, but yeah...

 

[Snake99]

In Wish Fulfillment, I like it when it's about kingdom building and the author makes the protagonist create a utopia according to his or her political ideologies, while other countries with an opposing ideology are backward or dystopian.

 

[ThisAdamGuy]

In Wish Fulfillment, I like it when it's about kingdom building and the author makes the protagonist create a utopia according to his or her political ideologies, while other countries with an opposing ideology are backward or dystopian.

On Scribble Hub, I like it when people actually read the thread before replying to it.

 

[ACertainPassingUser]

"Wish-fulfilment" are one of the typical insult reader and critic use to comment Author's lack of skill to hide the obviousness and lack of good excuse for those lucky power up or lucky events that protagonist receives.

Just like "cliche" and "repetitive".

Spesking of repetitive,

I usually draws the line when MC and the "second women" just gets too close without any warning.

Male Character and "first girl interest" are the only exception I can accept where they can just get close to without any reason.

It's a part of classic Fantasy, that men and women suddenly met their perfect match and falls in love near-instantly.

First time is a coincidence.

If the author just create another female character that just like the guy near instantly as well, that's where I draw the line.

First time is a coincidence,
Second time is a pattern.

Aftr the third girl that suddenly falls in love with the MC as well, I can no longer feel the plot coherence and the Fantasy plausibility.

First time is a coincidence
Second time is a pattern
Third time is a Harem Fantasy wish fullfilment

 

[KidBuu699]

Wish fulfillment to me is when in a story everything goes in the mc's way. A lot of the comments here are focusing on harem and more eastern stories. So let instead look at a western term. To me a wish fulfillment story is a "mary sue" story. Be a it female or male lead. It is a story where everything is "perfect."

The mc themselves doesn't have to be perfect, but everything that happens around them or to them is.

 

[Anonjohn20]

Sorry for posting two threads so close together, but this is kinda piggybacking off my other one. I was thinking about what it was that drew people to the harem genre, and the obvious answer is that it's pure wish fulfillment. I'm fine with wish fulfillment, and think it's a key part of storytelling as a concept. Even if a character's story is horribly tragic, there's a part of us that wants to experience that for ourselves, or else we wouldn't want to read about it. That makes it wish fulfillment. We don't call something like Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time wish fulfillment, but books with harems or OP main characters are. Books like Harry Potter and Twilight might or might not be wish fulfillment, depending on who you ask. So I'm curious, when do you think a story crosses the line between "just a normal story" to "wish fulfillment fantasy"?

For me, I think it's when it becomes obvious that the author cares more about the destination than the journey. The main character might train to get stronger, but the process of getting stronger isn't as important as being strong, if you get what I mean. The hero doesn't meet women to flesh out the world and provide insight into themselves or the other characters, they're just there to justify a slightly different flavor of spice than what the hero already has available.

If the author can make the journey itself feel like an important and well thought out part of the story, then it doesn't qualify as wish fulfillment to me. Or at least not pure wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment stories will either fast forward through the boring parts to give the hero what they want, or it'll skip them entirely. Like in Dungeon Diving 101, Ken has two hot classmates practically begging to be his girlfriend after just knowing him for a couple days. Then after scoring with them, a monster drops a ring, he bends down to pick it up, and in doing so inadvertently asks the elf princess (who he conveniently failed to notice up to that point) to marry him, causing her to instantly fall in love with him too.

On the other hand, Rand has a three-girl harem by the end of WOT, but it's obvious to anyone who's read it that the whole story wasn't written just to justify giving him that harem. So while it shares certain things with the harem genre, it's a story with a harem, and not a harem story.

Where do you guys draw the line?

For me it's wish fulfillment when the desires, fantasies, or ideal outcomes play out in unrealistic or overly convenient ways. I don't have a problem with a harem forming in fiction, but there is a difference between a few girls falling in love with a boy naturally over shared experiences and many girls getting love at first sight for the most plain and boring MC; there's a difference between working hard to get or perfect an ability and having it fall on your lap; etc.

 

[Bald-san]

Sorry for posting two threads so close together, but this is kinda piggybacking off my other one. I was thinking about what it was that drew people to the harem genre, and the obvious answer is that it's pure wish fulfillment. I'm fine with wish fulfillment, and think it's a key part of storytelling as a concept. Even if a character's story is horribly tragic, there's a part of us that wants to experience that for ourselves, or else we wouldn't want to read about it. That makes it wish fulfillment. We don't call something like Lord of the Rings or Wheel of Time wish fulfillment, but books with harems or OP main characters are. Books like Harry Potter and Twilight might or might not be wish fulfillment, depending on who you ask. So I'm curious, when do you think a story crosses the line between "just a normal story" to "wish fulfillment fantasy"?

For me, I think it's when it becomes obvious that the author cares more about the destination than the journey. The main character might train to get stronger, but the process of getting stronger isn't as important as being strong, if you get what I mean. The hero doesn't meet women to flesh out the world and provide insight into themselves or the other characters, they're just there to justify a slightly different flavor of spice than what the hero already has available.

If the author can make the journey itself feel like an important and well thought out part of the story, then it doesn't qualify as wish fulfillment to me. Or at least not pure wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment stories will either fast forward through the boring parts to give the hero what they want, or it'll skip them entirely. Like in Dungeon Diving 101, Ken has two hot classmates practically begging to be his girlfriend after just knowing him for a couple days. Then after scoring with them, a monster drops a ring, he bends down to pick it up, and in doing so inadvertently asks the elf princess (who he conveniently failed to notice up to that point) to marry him, causing her to instantly fall in love with him too.

On the other hand, Rand has a three-girl harem by the end of WOT, but it's obvious to anyone who's read it that the whole story wasn't written just to justify giving him that harem. So while it shares certain things with the harem genre, it's a story with a harem, and not a harem story.

Where do you guys draw the line?

I think it's relative, really. Recently, in webnovel, my Pokemon Fanfic (https://www.scribblehub.com/series/1702580/pokemon-the-surgeon-anthony/) is being called too dragged out, but for me, it's a wish fulfillment because I want to make thesis and Dissertations about Pokemon training.

 

[ShrimpShady]

To me, it boils down to whether or not the story's progression feels earned.

I read a lot of romance manga, and I'll immediately peg a story as shallow wish-fulfillment if the romantic progress feels unearned. If the characters are brought together by contrivance, their interactions feel flat and are more focused on titillation, and the romance moves on without building up any actual chemistry or tension, then I assume the point is none of those things and that it's for people who just like watching cute anime characters fawn over an inoffensive protagonist.

So I guess it is that journey vs destination thing

 

[Anonjohn20]

I think it's relative

Fair enough.

To me, it boils down to whether or not the story's progression feels earned.

Exactly!

 

[CharlesEBrown]

On Scribble Hub, I like it when people actually read the thread before replying to it.

But that would not only be wish-fulfillment but IMPLAUSIBLE wish-fulfillment...