Why does modern military firepower not work against monsters and other BS reasonings.

Bartun

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Humans had decimated thousands of other species millions of years before firearms were even invented. Mamoths, mastodons, cave bears, sabertooth tigers, direwolves, and many other giant animals that would have easily mauled/stomped over them.

Why is that? Humans are smarter and communicate far more effectively than any other living being. We are used to seeing humans being preyed upon by dinosaurs in movies, but the truth is that humans would manage to hunt down and kill even a mighty T-Rex, even with spears.

Humans learned to master fire, and if an unkillable monster is out there in the woods, they would just set the entire forest on fire. And even if said monster isn't afraid of fire, humans would kill its prey to starve it. And even if that doesn't work, they track down and kill its pups. Large animals take a while to grow. Just imagine you're a hungry giant-ass dinosaur, and tiny little hairless apes kill your pups and squash your eggs every single time you're out there hunting.

Humans had done that to everything that had threatened them. That's why every single animal out there is afraid of humans at a genetic level. Humans just adapt too quickly and efficiently, and no matter how many you kill, there is always more, and they always come for more.

I bet if humans ever face demonic monsters from another dimension immune to bullets due to some demonic energy, it wouldn't take long before humans figure out how to replicate it and develop bullets imbued with demonic energy. How would a demon sealed for thousands of years in another dimension somehow develop an immunity to a weapon it can't even fathom?

To every living being walking this good earth, humans are the horror beyond comprehension.
 

Alfir

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I wish a physicist could explain why bullets won't work on magical monsters.
 

CheertheSecond

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It is standard BS really.

Because monster has mana/ qi/ mystic-energy reinforced bodies, thus they becomes bullet and explosion proof if said weapon is not mana/ qi/ mystic-energy made.

The laziest reason I am currently hearing is "it is the otherworld. Not from GATE, so yeah, deal with it."
Just fantasy bs. Even if dragon scale is as hard as diamond and it is 2 meter thick on a 1km-long dragon. Modern firepower can still kill that thing before it can get in range to do anything about the human. Fantasy writers either need to invent bs or just don't understand the true physics behind modern firearms to make it accurately.

Just look up the Yamato battleship maingun and its plating thickness. Battleships are designed to withstand plating rating of their own specs so Yamato thickest plating on critical structures can withstand their main battery for sometimes. Mind you, this is when people put a lot of afford in making thick plating because that's their only way to protect against enemy attack. Look at how thick the Yamato's armour is and this is not just any steel. They are special steel alloys far stronger than normal steel or iron. Just to let you know a normal navy gun's shell can fuck up typical steel of the same thickness of the Yamato's plating badly. In WW2, they had Armour-piercing shells and later even the far more penetrative High Eplosive Armour-Piercing shells and the Yamato's plating is designed to survive several hits of these shells. That's just how ridiculous firepower in WW2 is when they follow the big gun and thick shield design philosophy. We went far past that stage and our missiles these days carry payloads far more destructive than the Yamato's main battery shells with attack range several times farther and the accuracy of several thousands times beyond WW2 aiming techniques of naval warfare. Ridiculous and overkilled? Yes! That's how fucking crazy the world 80 years ago was.

Now we are far deadlier. Know the Tsar Bomba which can dwarf a typical volcanic eruption in power? The Atomic bunkers in the cold war are deep under the ground enough that even a bomb 10 times the destructiveness of the Tsar Bomba can not harm a mosquito in that bunker. Of course, we do have weapons against even these bunkers, the Bunker Bursters which succeed where nukes fail. All these are not even modern day's military, it's back in the 80s during the cold-war era.

In modern day, we have better things stockpiled and hidden. We basically have no idea how much better army weaponry is because none of the big countries dare to disclose their bottom reserve in fear of those weaponry being analysed and countered too quickly. I heard we got missiles with 100km range and very high accuracy rating. Its yield is about more than twice a Yamato's cannon shell. Of course, in digital age, we do not care as much about destructiveness but more about anti-disruption like radar jamming and decoy flares since these can really fuck up the guiding system of a missile but we are not weaker than WW2's weaponry in terms of destructiveness.

Threats in the sky, we have nuke and anti-air missiles with high interception rate. Threats on the ground, we have bunker bursters and other ridiculous things. Threats underwater, we have Supercavitating torpedos that travel through the water at 370km/h and can be equipped with nuclear payload. We reach the stage where we can almost scorch the entire surface of the earth with nuclear warheads by turning every inch on Earth into burning zones. What do modern weaponry even fear?

You know it's full of shit when some guys being called the super-human-level strong that no-sell modern firearm but couldn't fly over labyrinth wall, being crushed by fucking rocks, got hurt by someone smashing them into boulders, get burn by hot tea, fear of being buried in a cave-in event and the greatest way to keep them out is still a dome-less fortress with high fucking walls.
 
Last edited:

DaelyxLenAuphydas

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It amuses me I guess.

Also I am trying to steal ideas.
Well if its ideas we're wanting... Then I suppose I can help somewhat. I'll tell you how I do it in my own story, Birthright, since honestly figuring out the details was something I worked on for a while.

So, Birthright is a hybrid sci-fi fantasy setting. And it was important to me to make the sci-fi elements useful, but ultimately still less powerful than magic stuff. Because magic stuff has the inherent disadvantage of taking much more individual talent and artisanry, it has an inherent disadvantage compared to mass-produced technology. So in order for it to be useful, it has to have a notable advantage.

Now the problem is that if its just a straightforward "guns are less effective against magic things" then I run into a problem; that makes small arms basically worthless as they wouldnt be able to do anything, while making super-heavy artillery still outcompete magic in that field. So I needed a different approach.

The first step is to focus not on making tech weaker but magic stronger. It personally bugs me when guns and other modern weapons are able to easily kill creatures which can face-tank magical attacks like dragonbreath, fireballs, huge super-lasers, etc. But the problem is largely that we're not comparing modern ballistic weapons to the flashier magic spells, but rather to the simpler 'swords and bows' part of fantasy. The approach here is that all weapons which are based on a wielders own strength, as opposed to weapons which are independant of the wielders strength, are augmented by the wielders Soul in a metaphysical contest of strength as much as a physical one. This doesnt just mean melee weapons to be clear; a 'mundane' weapon is anything which doesnt derive its killing power from the wielders personal strength. That means chainsaws, guns, artillery, etc. tends to have the least effect from the wielders soul, while things like crossbows, compound bows, or pikes are kinda in a middle ground. They use some of the wielders physical strength but a lot more of the killing power comes from the mechanisms that store energy in the first two, or using the enemies own momentum against them in the latter case.

So then theres the need to keep really strong kinetic weapons (Railguns, tank guns, artillery, etc.) from being too overwhelmingly powerful. This is the part that seems to bug you. As these types of weapons are largely not based on the wielders own strength they fall off in effectiveness depending on the strength of the enemies Soul. To be clear, this isnt just a "Some things are magic and get immunity to all non-magic attacks", its more of a gradual falloff. The stronger a creature is the more this matters. All magic things have some resistance, but that resistance is not necessarily linear. it's important to note though that magical resistance is not linearly proportionate to the strength of the attack, so its pretty difficult to brute force your way through it.

Having said that, heavy weaponry can still pose a significant threat to magical creatures. Here is where the third key part comes into play. Even mundane weapons are bolstered to some extent by the talent and ability of the wielder, but this is most relevant the more 'direct' the conflict is. In one of the first chapters of my story, someone tries to shoot a magic-wielding aristocrat with their sniper rifle; it hurts them, but they're still able to keep fighting. And once they start using magical shields, its treated as basically impossible to get through. However, when the same person charges the aristocrat and forcibly rams the barrel of the gun under their chin and pulls the trigger, that kills them instantly; they backed up the gun with their own strength and finesse, and as a result backed it up to some extent with their own metaphysical 'presence' or 'force' in the conflict.

This applies in the other direction as well though. The more 'indirect' a means of attack is the less likely it is to be effective against magic. Suppressive fire with machine guns, massed volleys of archers, indirect artillery bombardments, fire-and-forget missiles... Things like this all are less effective against magic specifically because they're less targeted and the person doing the attacking has less metaphysical 'presence' behind the attack. The aggression is less 'focused'.

This mostly is shown less by actually weakening the force of the attack, and more like 'probability manipulation'. In fact, that 'probability manipulation' is a central part of how I write magic dealing with technology. The wards arent just making the creature ridiculously durable (though there is an aspect of that) but rather its closer to making them ridiculously lucky. Massed artillery fire just 'coincidentally' produces shrapnel that doesnt hit the creature in question. Undirected machine gun or arrow fire 'conveniently' hits the thickest parts of the armor. Things like that. This still applies even when they are locked in melee combat, but its far less effective. And to be clear; Putting personal effort and more 'directed' aggression into it still makes it more effective. A sniper has better odds of hitting a mage than a dozen machine-gunners. A tank crew gunner is much more likely to wound a dragon than a battery of howitzers. A guy with a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher is more likely to kill a chimera than an air-to-ground missile fired from a drone. Things like that.

In this way, heavier technological weapons are still useful, particularly against less magical opponents, but its harder to just no-sell the really-powerful-ancient-dragon by just bombarding it into the stone age with massed artillery salvos. And by the same token, small arms are still useful especially against less-magically inclined enemies or even somewhat more magically inclined enemies if you just have enough talent to back it up. The more of yourself that you put into a fight, the less effective magical protection is. Also, less 'mundane' weapons are more effective against magic; this applies to some technologically produced weapons too if they have a stronger elemental component. Lasers, flamethrowers, freeze rays... Things like that.

This whole system is also kinda how I internally justify characters being able to go on adventures and not just assume they're going to die. Since realistically if you get into a thousand fights, you're basically guaranteed to die from bad luck no matter how good you are. But magical things just have enough metaphysical 'presence' in reality that the odds kinda warp in their favor, and they end up with much lower attrition rates as a result. To be clear, I'm not saying they are consistently always fine with the worst possible odds. Its more like, I try to write them with about the same odds of survival as fantasy characters usually do in stories, and this is more of an internal justification for why named characters arent constantly dropping like flies, since it always bugs me in fantasy series when characters are constantly going up against horrific odds and just somehow never seem to just die.

Finally, I do have some tweaks to the laws of physics to avoid the most overkill weapons because Mutually Assured Destruction is just no fun. There are no nuclear physics in Birthright; The fundamental forces of reality are the Electromagnetic force, the Gravitational force, and the Arcanoforce, i.e. magic. There are no particles smaller than atoms, and elements can only be converted between eachother through magic (i.e. alchemy). No fusion, no fission, but everything else is fair game. So theres lasers, railguns, cruise missiles, plasma weaponry, etc. But no nukes.
 

NotaNuffian

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Well if its ideas we're wanting... Then I suppose I can help somewhat. I'll tell you how I do it in my own story, Birthright, since honestly figuring out the details was something I worked on for a while.

So, Birthright is a hybrid sci-fi fantasy setting. And it was important to me to make the sci-fi elements useful, but ultimately still less powerful than magic stuff. Because magic stuff has the inherent disadvantage of taking much more individual talent and artisanry, it has an inherent disadvantage compared to mass-produced technology. So in order for it to be useful, it has to have a notable advantage.

Now the problem is that if its just a straightforward "guns are less effective against magic things" then I run into a problem; that makes small arms basically worthless as they wouldnt be able to do anything, while making super-heavy artillery still outcompete magic in that field. So I needed a different approach.

The first step is to focus not on making tech weaker but magic stronger. It personally bugs me when guns and other modern weapons are able to easily kill creatures which can face-tank magical attacks like dragonbreath, fireballs, huge super-lasers, etc. But the problem is largely that we're not comparing modern ballistic weapons to the flashier magic spells, but rather to the simpler 'swords and bows' part of fantasy. The approach here is that all weapons which are based on a wielders own strength, as opposed to weapons which are independant of the wielders strength, are augmented by the wielders Soul in a metaphysical contest of strength as much as a physical one. This doesnt just mean melee weapons to be clear; a 'mundane' weapon is anything which doesnt derive its killing power from the wielders personal strength. That means chainsaws, guns, artillery, etc. tends to have the least effect from the wielders soul, while things like crossbows, compound bows, or pikes are kinda in a middle ground. They use some of the wielders physical strength but a lot more of the killing power comes from the mechanisms that store energy in the first two, or using the enemies own momentum against them in the latter case.

So then theres the need to keep really strong kinetic weapons (Railguns, tank guns, artillery, etc.) from being too overwhelmingly powerful. This is the part that seems to bug you. As these types of weapons are largely not based on the wielders own strength they fall off in effectiveness depending on the strength of the enemies Soul. To be clear, this isnt just a "Some things are magic and get immunity to all non-magic attacks", its more of a gradual falloff. The stronger a creature is the more this matters. All magic things have some resistance, but that resistance is not necessarily linear. it's important to note though that magical resistance is not linearly proportionate to the strength of the attack, so its pretty difficult to brute force your way through it.

Having said that, heavy weaponry can still pose a significant threat to magical creatures. Here is where the third key part comes into play. Even mundane weapons are bolstered to some extent by the talent and ability of the wielder, but this is most relevant the more 'direct' the conflict is. In one of the first chapters of my story, someone tries to shoot a magic-wielding aristocrat with their sniper rifle; it hurts them, but they're still able to keep fighting. And once they start using magical shields, its treated as basically impossible to get through. However, when the same person charges the aristocrat and forcibly rams the barrel of the gun under their chin and pulls the trigger, that kills them instantly; they backed up the gun with their own strength and finesse, and as a result backed it up to some extent with their own metaphysical 'presence' or 'force' in the conflict.

This applies in the other direction as well though. The more 'indirect' a means of attack is the less likely it is to be effective against magic. Suppressive fire with machine guns, massed volleys of archers, indirect artillery bombardments, fire-and-forget missiles... Things like this all are less effective against magic specifically because they're less targeted and the person doing the attacking has less metaphysical 'presence' behind the attack. The aggression is less 'focused'.

This mostly is shown less by actually weakening the force of the attack, and more like 'probability manipulation'. In fact, that 'probability manipulation' is a central part of how I write magic dealing with technology. The wards arent just making the creature ridiculously durable (though there is an aspect of that) but rather its closer to making them ridiculously lucky. Massed artillery fire just 'coincidentally' produces shrapnel that doesnt hit the creature in question. Undirected machine gun or arrow fire 'conveniently' hits the thickest parts of the armor. Things like that. This still applies even when they are locked in melee combat, but its far less effective. And to be clear; Putting personal effort and more 'directed' aggression into it still makes it more effective. A sniper has better odds of hitting a mage than a dozen machine-gunners. A tank crew gunner is much more likely to wound a dragon than a battery of howitzers. A guy with a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher is more likely to kill a chimera than an air-to-ground missile fired from a drone. Things like that.

In this way, heavier technological weapons are still useful, particularly against less magical opponents, but its harder to just no-sell the really-powerful-ancient-dragon by just bombarding it into the stone age with massed artillery salvos. And by the same token, small arms are still useful especially against less-magically inclined enemies or even somewhat more magically inclined enemies if you just have enough talent to back it up. The more of yourself that you put into a fight, the less effective magical protection is. Also, less 'mundane' weapons are more effective against magic; this applies to some technologically produced weapons too if they have a stronger elemental component. Lasers, flamethrowers, freeze rays... Things like that.

This whole system is also kinda how I internally justify characters being able to go on adventures and not just assume they're going to die. Since realistically if you get into a thousand fights, you're basically guaranteed to die from bad luck no matter how good you are. But magical things just have enough metaphysical 'presence' in reality that the odds kinda warp in their favor, and they end up with much lower attrition rates as a result. To be clear, I'm not saying they are consistently always fine with the worst possible odds. Its more like, I try to write them with about the same odds of survival as fantasy characters usually do in stories, and this is more of an internal justification for why named characters arent constantly dropping like flies, since it always bugs me in fantasy series when characters are constantly going up against horrific odds and just somehow never seem to just die.

Finally, I do have some tweaks to the laws of physics to avoid the most overkill weapons because Mutually Assured Destruction is just no fun. There are no nuclear physics in Birthright; The fundamental forces of reality are the Electromagnetic force, the Gravitational force, and the Arcanoforce, i.e. magic. There are no particles smaller than atoms, and elements can only be converted between eachother through magic (i.e. alchemy). No fusion, no fission, but everything else is fair game. So theres lasers, railguns, cruise missiles, plasma weaponry, etc. But no nukes.
Please take note that I "like" not because I fully understand your wall of text.

But rather, the notion of "soul" and "probability" being thrown into magic does feel magicky.
 

FieryLou

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It depends what type of "monster"

Humans would no diff a GoT Type of Dragon, thats for sure. But against some cultivation bs fiend? Nah.
 

NotaNuffian

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It depends what type of "monster"

Humans would no diff a GoT Type of Dragon, thats for sure. But against some cultivation bs fiend? Nah.
I meant standard D&D/ korean dungeon monsters.

Cuz Solo Leveling Anime was the one that made me go wtf on goblin being assault rifle bullet proof.

Granted, might be a high goblin or some other BS. But it still looks like a normal goblin.

And also, many times in BS novels of KR and CN, modern guns are shit against dungeon monsters and humans need to become stronger (KR with hunters, CN with martial cultivators)

Another fun fact I sort of noticed is how there is no taoism (standard) cultivators against dungeon monsters, only always martial cultvators (aka body building beasts that turn themselves into supermen).
 

Supperset

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Fear not for I am here.

Nukes the Fire Kingdom by making bullshit magic but actual nukes are useless because there's a magic barrier. Like what the fuck. Magic barrier work against magic not against physics take on doom weapon.
 

xedale

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I wish a physicist could explain why bullets won't work on magical monsters.
The only type of magic monster on this planet is ghosts, and humanity fears them as much as most other animals fear humans. They are immune cause a body created solely by one's mind is only subject to said mind's inherent tendencies.
 

Alfir

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The only type of magic monster on this planet is ghosts, and humanity fears them as much as most other animals fear humans. They are immune cause a body created solely by one's mind is only subject to said mind's inherent tendencies.
So, salt doesn't work on ghosts? The same way guns don't work on goblins?
 

MarikoRawralton

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I think the funniest inversion of this trope is the game "Shadow Tower Abyss" on the PlayStation 2, in which the player is in a fantasy environment but they came from the modern day real world, so you can eventually get shotguns, rifles, and machine guns and just mow down some of the in game enemies and NPCs like nothing.
 

xedale

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So, salt doesn't work on ghosts? The same way guns don't work on goblins?
Salt? Isn't this just an old superstition based on what salt does to our food?

Well, even if Science got a change of heart and is now telling me ghosts must be real, we still don't know much about them... Tbf, scientists who claimed they've investigated and found them to be real have been there from the very beginning, but their experience could have been explained away through other means... And such explanations were always more plausible than the existence of ghosts... Either way.

Lots of people have seen them, but the number is like 0-1 ghosts per life, and I don't know anyone who tried throwing salt... Most people don't even carry salt with them. And there are people who dedicate their lives to ghost hunting but never meet a single one.

Our body contains a significant amount of salt. When people turn ghosts during NDE and touch living people, it does nothing.

Some people claim they tried using salt on a haunted house and felt it reduced the level of haunting... Meaning the ghosts are still there and keep doing their thing.

Personally, I wouldn't expect salt to do anything to a ghost.
 

CharlesEBrown

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It is standard BS really.

Because monster has mana/ qi/ mystic-energy reinforced bodies, thus they becomes bullet and explosion proof if said weapon is not mana/ qi/ mystic-energy made.

The laziest reason I am currently hearing is "it is the otherworld. Not from GATE, so yeah, deal with it."
Depends on the monster. Recall Brigadier Aleister Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart being very pleased to finally encounter a monster that wasn't bullet proof on Doctor Who.
Usually it's a matter of scale - King Kong (original version) felt normal bullets, but about the same way we'd feel a B.B. or airsoft bullet through clothes. Godzilla (original version) would not even notice any but the absolute largest, uranium depleted, armor piercing bullets, but would feel a bursting shell (just as Golden Age Superman could - "His (scientifically advanced) skin can be pierced by nothing less than a bursting shell."), and that would be about the equivalent of a very solid slap unless of a really, really big caliber (60 or higher) or a lot of shells hitting at once.
Orcs, however, would be mowed down by gunfire (and love the concept, striving to capture guns if they didn't have them already to use on the enemy).
 

Rezcore

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Irl, it's not cool. However, it's a simple problem to fix. Bullets are single use in gates, don't let your characters have inventories and they will have to use arrows.
 
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