What is a Hero? & Do you think the Hero's journeys is outdated? (The Lounge Podcast)

[Succubiome]

Multiple people have read I Was A Hero In Another World But My Dog-Girl Slave Swapped Places With Me And Now I Can’t Disobey Her, been over 40 chapters in, and then been like "ah, when is the Hero finally going to power up and destroy those who wronged them? that's what I'm waiting to see", even though it's not the kind of story, and I have a Page 1 disclaimer about precisely that.

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A/B/O is based on a wolf societal research study done in zoos-- which has all the validity of studying people in prisons and being like "ah, this is natural way of human behavior". But it dovetailed nicely with a greco-roman idea about sexual roles which still lingers today, and some people became super into it.

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"One rock was nestled close against another rock."

Because of the texture of the English language we share, I would assume this implies to the reader not only a physical closeness, but also an emotional closeness, possibly a familial or romantic relationship between the two to most of those who read it.

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People slot things when they experience them into familiar archetypes because that's an easy way to understand them, even if they don't fit perfectly.

People, when creating, can't help be influenced by ideas they have experienced.

The Hero Myth was always a weird abstraction of stories that had came before-- but it influenced stories that came after in a very real way, and once you have it in your head, it's not hard to see it in other places.

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"All stories are, at their core, are about someone who is trying to retain belief despite their belief being, at best, an imperfect reflection of their surroundings."

I'm pretty sure this isn't true!

I think it's an interesting way to look at things, but also I just made up that it's the blueprint of all stories?

But if you believe it, it will influence how you read things.

If you believe it, it will influence what you write.

 

[melchi]

I agree with most people in this thread. Even today I read a review on Amazon complaining that the main character only has reading skills. All the fights are between other people. It makes the main character seem to be too passive.

It can be done but current readers still like heroes.

 

[D.S.Nate]

The hero's journey is timeless because it speaks directly towards the way that one rises above adversity and succeeds. Making one's self happier and removing suffering from one's own life. As long as we're human, the hero's journey will also be a style of story that people will enjoy hearing/reading about/viewing. It's fundamentally ingrained in animal life through hundreds of millions of years of evolution to follow that template.

To me, this question is like the equivalent of asking, "Is water outdated?"

Sure, you could drink pop (or soda), juice, or something else. However, water as a drinking source isn't, and arguably cannot be, outdated.

Not that people won't enjoy drinking other things, just that water is fundamentally something the majority of people drink, and will continue to drink as long as we're human.

That's very well put, damn... should just let you speak lol.

But yeah, so long as we live there will be conflict and so long as we struggle against life we will always look up to people who can only pick themselves up but pick up others along the way. Weather that be helping someone across the street or being there for a friend in there time in need these are acts that these kind of stories inspire.

 

[WaterFish]

I like heroes even now. They brave the obstacles and live strong. What I don’t like is useless ‘realism’ and skepticism on whether being a hero is worth it. This is wish-fulfilment for some and a pastime for many. Unless you’re writing a subversion like Invincible, just play it straight.

 

[Jemini]

The hero's journey is timeless because it speaks directly towards the way that one rises above adversity and succeeds. Making one's self happier and removing suffering from one's own life. As long as we're human, the hero's journey will also be a style of story that people will enjoy hearing/reading about/viewing. It's fundamentally ingrained in animal life through hundreds of millions of years of evolution to follow that template.

To me, this question is like the equivalent of asking, "Is water outdated?"

Sure, you could drink pop (or soda), juice, or something else. However, water as a drinking source isn't, and arguably cannot be, outdated.

Not that people won't enjoy drinking other things, just that water is fundamentally something the majority of people drink, and will continue to drink as long as we're human.

It's also worth noting that the "hero's journey" plot structure does not actually require that anyone in the cast have the title "hero" or that even the word "hero" gets used in the entire narrative.

It's just the following of a specific set of story beats, which as mentioned here have more to do with a person overcoming adversity than a person being cast as "the hero" in some kind of big strong-man hero cleche. We can do all we want to re-define what a hero is, but we will always have people going on the hero's journey no matter how the word "hero" gets defined.

We will always have people thrust into positions of responsibility when they don't want to be there (call to adventure and subsequent refusal of the call,) they will always face challenges when they have taken on this role, and they will always be transformed by these experiences.

If those three things happen in a story in that order, that's a hero's journey plot in it's most basic form, and it can be expressed regardless of what the "hero" of the story actually looks like or how they behave on this journey.

You show me any story in which the protagonist overcomes adversity (by their own power, not by getting saved like a damsel,) and I can show you how it fits the "hero's journey" plot structure.


EDIT: It's also worth noting, the "hero's journey" was a plot structure that was observed and discovered, not formulated and prescribed. The man who coined the term observed a large sample size of various stories in which a hero appeared, and he noticed that every single one of the actual compelling and successful ones seemed to follow a similar plot structure, and he boiled down and applied names to each of those story beats.

He discovered that all of them get told they need to go on a journey, they refuse at first but then either they change their mind or are forced to change their mind, they go through several difficulties, are changed by those difficulties, often find they have done things they are not proud of that they have to atone for near the end of the story, and then have some form of return to normalcy after the journey's over.

That's the most basic form, with a few add-ons like mentors and mentor deaths making frequent cameo appearances, but those little features are more like optional accessories that may or may not be included (but do appear frequently enough to be note worthy)

And then, after this was observed, other people examined the concept and discovered it applies to a lot more than just classical hero stories and actually appears almost anywhere the protagonist overcomes adversity.

 

[BlackKnightX]

The hero's journey is basically how we all experience change. We get out of the comfort zone, go through all the trials and hardships, meet our inner demon, triumph over it, get what we want, and then come back around full circle having changed.

If you look at the diagram, the lower half of the circle is marked Unknown or Unconsciousness. This implies the outside of our comfort zone.

For example, someone is struggling with an alcohol problem. One day, something happens that compels him to change. His first instinct is to resist, of course. We humans don't like change because it implies discomfort and pain. He might go get some help, until he's finally ready to take the first step out of his comfort zone. Once he takes the first step, he'll struggle through the hardships and challenges. This part will test his strength of will and resilience. He'll struggle so hard until finally he sees the light at the end of the tunnel. He finally finds the right balance and how to handle his problem. Then he'll return to his comfort zone having changed.

Is this necessary? No, not at all. But it's a universal process. You could say that it's basically what character arc is all about. It's a powerful tool to help you tell a story that will connect with a lot of people, but it's not the only tools. You can write a fun story where the character doesn't change at all. Depends on the kind of story you want to tell.

 

[D.S.Nate]

The hero's journey is basically how we all experience change. We get out of the comfort zone, go through all the trials and hardships, meet our inner demon, triumph over it, get what we want, and then come back around full circle having changed.

If you look at the diagram, the lower half of the circle is marked Unknown or Unconsciousness. This implies the outside of our comfort zone.

For example, someone is struggling with an alcohol problem. One day, something happens that compels him to change. His first instinct is to resist, of course. We humans don't like change because it implies discomfort and pain. He might go get some help, until he's finally ready to take the first step out of his comfort zone. Once he takes the first step, he'll struggle through the hardships and challenges. This part will taste his strength of will and resilience. He'll struggle so hard until finally he sees the light at the end of the tunnel. He finally finds the right balance and how to handle his problem. Then he'll return to his comfort zone having changed.

Is this necessary? No, not at all. But it's a universal process. You could say that it's basically what character arc is all about. It's a powerful tool to help you tell a story that will connect with a lot of people, but it's not the only tools. You can write a fun story where the character doesn't change at all. Depends on the kind of story you want to tell.

Very well put. Also that part at the end about characters that font change is interesting too because what tends to happen in the ones that work is instead of them undergoing change it the people who they make contact with who's lives are changed.

These people normally are older in age and have been through there journey of change before you meet them. You can argue that the mentor that the hero's learns from is just another hero that been on the journey before the hero and is there to help them on there's.