How many levels of administrative division should an interstellar nation have?

CheertheSecond

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Even with ftl bullshitery, you have to take it quite seriously. Because how bs is it? Like, you might say a travel that would take 1000 light years is reduced to 10 years, or 1 year, or 1 month, or 1 day etc. It doesn't have to be an exact number as there could be more advanced and expensive iterations of the same technology, like how different brands of cars can reach different maximum speeds, or how a semi made to carry cargo can't be as fast as a sports car, but it would still have a close range in between. Like, you can't just have one space ship doing 100 times the speed of light with its FTL tech, while another does 1 million times the speed of light. That would be an insane technology gap within the same governing body. Or for traveling really far distances there could be specialized warp gates, which makes the travel destination rigid in exchange for speed.

Anyways, travel time/method will affect every aspect of your world building. It will determine how conflicts happen and wars are fought. How trade works, how feasible it is for regular people to move from planet to planet, how the ruling system works. You also need to put logical limitations on the FLT tech so it doesn't just turn into a kill all method or negate space fleet battles etc. Like, how do you prevent someone from just bypassing all your star system defenses with FTL tech? How do you prevent someone from just ramming the planet at relativistic speeds?

A popular way is to make it so that FTL tech doesn't do well within strong gravitational wells, so getting too close to a star with FTL becomes dangerous as you risk getting torn apart by the conflicting forces the closer you are. So the FTL tech can be really fast to travel in between stars, but might force the user to travel in real space using thrusters when entering the star system etc. Which makes space battles, planetary defense, customs etc. feasible. You gotta think all of these seriously.
No worry. I've already drafted several modes of ftl transportation. Some traverse through real space but some open portals. Certain of the quickest mode of travel comes with cons such as portals being able to be blocked or disrupted by other techs. Some other modes of transportation that requires opening a gateway through a different traversal medium becomes inaccessible in place of intense psionic energy concentration and etc.

As many levels as the author wants it to have.
This statement defeats the purpose of a discussion threat. I made a discussion threat because I want to hear other reasoning and methods. Otherwise, I wouldn't provide all the details to make the discussion as easy as possible.
 

corruption

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This statement defeats the purpose of a discussion threat. I made a discussion threat because I want to hear other reasoning and methods. Otherwise, I wouldn't provide all the details to make the discussion as easy as possible.
That is because we have to look at things not mentioned here. What type of government? Is it one solid nation, or a conglomerate of smaller nations? How strict is government control? How large is it? A nation that spans a few systems and one that spans galaxies would be different. Is it like in Warhammer 40,000 where the administration, the military and the church all work together but separately? How is communication and transport?
These and other factors may come into play, or not. It is up to authors to decide this.

Ask yourself these questions:
How controlling do you want to government to be?
What political system are you using? Nobility systems could really dig down through all the different titles!
What is the feel for the story?
How often will the characters be dealing with gov, and in what context?
Are there bodies that operate in the nation, but not controlled by the gov, despite having legal power? For example, Adventurers Guilds.
Is gov control steady all across the nation, or are there areas with more or less control than other areas? For example, an area around an anomaly might have stricter and different levels of gov control then an asteroid mining area.
 

CheertheSecond

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That is because we have to look at things not mentioned here. What type of government? Is it one solid nation, or a conglomerate of smaller nations? How strict is government control? How large is it? A nation that spans a few systems and one that spans galaxies would be different. Is it like in Warhammer 40,000 where the administration, the military and the church all work together but separately? How is communication and transport?
These and other factors may come into play, or not. It is up to authors to decide this.

Ask yourself these questions:
How controlling do you want to government to be?
What political system are you using? Nobility systems could really dig down through all the different titles!
What is the feel for the story?
How often will the characters be dealing with gov, and in what context?
Are there bodies that operate in the nation, but not controlled by the gov, despite having legal power? For example, Adventurers Guilds.
Is gov control steady all across the nation, or are there areas with more or less control than other areas? For example, an area around an anomaly might have stricter and different levels of gov control then an asteroid mining area.


Highest criteria: Information flow.

They want all the paperwork to be responsive and efficient as much as possible.

Total distance of the territory: At most 1 week of delay between regions furthest to another.

The mentioned Government consolidates their control almost evenly across its territory.

Nobility and Government are two separate entities. One is a group with wealth and negligible privilege and priority over non-legal stuffs. The other handles administration and governing of the nation. At the helm is a temp king from one of the 3 monarchs taking their turn to rule the united kingdom. Only in-territory offices have any legal power to affect the nation. Only the government has legal power and no other non-government organisation.
 
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CharlesEBrown

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Highest criteria: Information flow.

They want all the paperwork to be responsive and efficient as much as possible.

Total distance of the territory: At most 1 week of delay between regions furthest to another.

The mentioned Government consolidates their control almost evenly across its territory.

Nobility and Governement are two separate entities. One is a group with wealth and negligible privilege and priority over non-legal stuffs. The other handles administration and governing of the nation. At the helm is a temp king from one of the 3 monarchs taking their turn to rule the united kingdom. Only in-territory offices have any legal power to affect the nation. Only the government has legal power and no other non-government organisation.
Heh. Sounds similar, except for the rotating king, to the primary government of the main continent on my fantasy world - the Treaty States of Sadrahanal. The Overking has absolute authority over the city where the throne is located and otherwise NORMALLY serves an advisory role. The only time his (or her, though there has only been one Queen Regent since the Founding) power ever extends beyond the city-state is when member nations are threatened, either by other member nations (then the Overking's job is to act as arbiter), or outside forces (when the full powers of the War Marshall fall to the Overking and any or all troops can be conscripted and mobilized to face it).
 

JKKnotts

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Serious world-building question here. No AI please that defeats the point of a discussion post and I genuinely don't need that.

If you are some sovereign ruler of an interstellar nation, how many levels of administrative units would be good to reduce red tape and lube the flow of paperwork?

On earth, most countries have 3 levels (states, cities and sub-city?).

What about an interstellar country?

I will put an example country so it is easier to discuss.

So Country Z has:

+1 capital planet: with as much people and geographic complexity as Earth
+10 major planets: about 4-6 billion people and several thousand cities each
+34 minor planets: below 1 billion people each (please note that major or minor refers to the population count and not the planet physical size)
+62 space stations: about several hundred thousand to millions of people each.

While I may not be intelligent or knowledgeable enough to really answer this in depth, I think I might have some ideas. Okay, so it seems like an Empire of sorts with a Sovereign leader. Honestly... I'd highly recommend into looking how the British Empire handled and ruled so many colonies across Earth.

And depending how realistic you wanted, entire swathes of planets likely would be shared with other powers rather than one sole government leader. Typically, Empires form because there are easy access points between areas of the Empire (like Egypt's Nile and the Mediterranean for the Romans) The reality is there's be an inordinate amount of red tape and administration that the Emperor would have to delegate for things to even run to any degree.

So if we look at the example: there's the capital planet with about 8 billion residents. On Earth we have 195 sovereign nations (not including territories and colonies, I am including Palestine). But then there's 10 major planets which would likely have (rough estimate) 100-200 nations each. So... (including minor planets) the Empire's rough estimate population would be a whopping 95 billion peoples.

Since it's an Empire, you would effectively have a royal family: each would have a sovereign leader over either the entire world, or for each continent; likely their children administrating the continents. So you're looking at a huge royal family, not to mention nobility who would then be those royal's vassals. You'd have probably about... 20 royal vassals with vassals beneath them. For Space stations, they would likely be controlled by generals under the jurisdiction of said Royal families depending on the distance of them to the planet; maybe a few would be directly controlled by the Emperor himself with his top generals for front lines.

Generals and other vassals of minor planets would also fall under the jurisdiction of the royal family, again, like the space stations. Those colonies would be focused on food and material gathering and production meant to be shipped back to the larger planets. These colonies (like real life ones) would inevitably rebel depending on how they are ruled and treated by laws and taxation.

If you have a parliament, it gets even larger. Let's estimate, like the US, that 5% of the population works as government workers of all levels. You'd have at minimum 4.75 billion government workers. I'm going to be real rough with military, but there'd be 500,000,000 actively enlisted soldiers (it'd vary depending on how much military infrastructure, again US assumed) Let's assume generals would be in charge of 100,000 soldiers, so you might have around 5000 generals minimum.

But honestly... the story would be more interesting if the system wasn't efficient. Efficiency is boring; chaos is fun. Empires thrive through constant warfare and expansion, so when they can't they fall apart due to their size. The Roman Empire lasted about 500 years, same was the Ottomans, and the Byzantines a huge 800. All of them were constantly struggling with revolts.

I'd recommend much smaller, because then it's more comprehensible to readers. Like I wouldn't want to know all ten planet names, and who is in charge, because it wouldn't matter (usually), and I'd get frustrated as hell if the systems were far too efficient and logical. People are dumb, unqualified, and even if the Emperor was a total genius, there'd be no way he could alone efficiently run everything and make sure all the proper people are in their place.

On earth, most countries have 3 levels (states, cities and sub-city?). To this point, no... It'd be Nation, states that make up the nation, and counties that form the state. Then there are cities in the county, then towns. Each town would have a mayor, each county might have a representative, etc.
 

MajorKerina

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As many as it needs to have for what you're trying to say about it. If you're not saying anything about the administration system then don't even mention it. But I would say put intention behind whatever you do not just window dressing to say you dressed the window.
 

JordanIda

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All politics is local, and large bureaucratic structures fail with lifespans inversely proportional to their size.

The entire history of city states and civilization on earth has transpired over a geological eyeblink, and it has failed here. Human city states are ephemeral. Sophistication, modernization, and technology neither save nor preserve them. (There are more countries on earth now than ever before.)

If interstellar governance exists, it necessarily takes a form that we cannot conceive.
 
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CharlesEBrown

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All politics is local, and large bureaucratic structures fail with lifespans inversely proportional to their size.

The entire history of city states and civilization on earth has transpired over a geological eyeblink, and it has failed here. Human city states are ephemeral. Sophistication, modernization, and technology neither save nor preserve them. (There are more countries on earth now than ever before.)

If interstellar governance exists, it necessarily takes a form that we cannot conceive.
The theory that Cristopher Stasheff used, and that I suspect is true, is that a civilization lasts as long as communications can reach from one end of it to the other in a reasonable amount of time (thus the importance of telepaths to keep worlds connected). Most empires failed after they reached a point where communication took weeks more than days.
 

JordanIda

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Modern civilization would appear to refute Stasheff's theory.

To our knowledge the record for continuous dynastic rule is held by ancient Egypt, a nation whose entire extent was dictated by the physical topography of the Nile and environs.

(China also persisted for thousands of years but suffered numerous dynastic upheavals. Only Egypt, to our knowledge, enjoyed a golden age that spanned millennia, plural.)

Rome built its roads not only for communication but also for taxation and to impose hegemony, yet its golden age was brief.

Today, communication and connectedness are literally global, yet civilization has fragmented to an unprecedented extent. The United States now holds the record for longest running constitutional republic (this form of government itself being an unfinished experiment), with France having gone through how many constitutional forms since the dissolution of its monarchy? I'm not even sure and can't be bothered to check. And the golden age of the United States, which has come and gone (roughly aligning to the span between the end of World War II and the assassination of Kennedy) has been a miniscule fraction of Rome's.

Despite our global communications and modernity, we are more Balkanizied than ever, with secessations and nations being formed every year, far too fast for the feckless UN to keep up with them.

There are many theories for the rise and fall of nations. Brooks Adams, were he alive today, would likely contend that global communications and modernity facilitate and accelerate civilization's decay and collapse.
 

Arkus86

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To our knowledge the record for continuous dynastic rule is held by ancient Egypt, a nation whose entire extent was dictated by the physical topography of the Nile and environs.
I should point out there are over 30 recognized dynasties over several distinct periods in that time frame, and Egypt was not exactly unified the entire time either, so it's not a great example of continuous dynastic rule.
 

JordanIda

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Nothing's perfect. I only said that Egypt is the best we have. The third and fourth dynasties of Old Egypt (i.e., Memphis) had greater longevity than most other civilizations that have followed, and Memphis has roots going back at least to the Paleolithic, 12,000 years ago (and that is only the heritage that we know about, as Memphis was no doubt built on the ruins of much older places predating the Ice Age). Not a great example? There is none better. We can speculate about Paleolithic (pre-Ice Age) cultures -- I believe that societal stability and longevity are inversely proportional to technological sophistication due to the influence of change itself as a disruptor-- but speculation is all we have for such cultures, as there is no written record.

Anyway, we're a bit off topic here. The thread is obviously intended as light fun. Science Fiction tends to be simplistic and linear. Interstellar empires, a la Star Wars? Sure. Star Wars is a spaghetti western in space. It needn't concern itself with plausibility. It is linear and simple by design. Good guys and bad guys. Of course these days we try to take lessons from Star Wars and apply them to real human civilizations. And that's where it all falls down.
 
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