Separated BG (Boy/Girl aka M/F) romance genre or tag

[bafflinghaze]

Given that Boys Love and Girls Love are their own separate genres, it would make sense to have BG (Boy/Girl) Love as a separate genre, or at least tag, so that readers can include or filter out as necessary.

[It would also be neat to have a "no romance" tag too]

edit: alternate names include Male-Female Relationship

 

[yansusustories]

I second this. We've just recently had a discussion thread about how it's annoying that there's often BG romance in novels advertised as GL. I think this would be a great solution to that problem as well. And the 'no romance' tag would be a nice addition.

 

[Moonpearl]

BG Romance genre would make life so much easier for everyone.

And there are always people looking for pure story with no romantic subplots attached, so "No Romance" would go a long way too.

 

[AliceShiki]

It's unneeded.

Use the Series Finder and include the Romance Genre while excluding BL and GL, you'll by exclusion get only BG Romance like this. The lack of homosexual romance is by default hetero romance.

I second this. We've just recently had a discussion thread about how it's annoying that there's often BG romance in novels advertised as GL. I think this would be a great solution to that problem as well. And the 'no romance' tag would be a nice addition.

That's the author's fault for not using genres properly though?

 

[Moonpearl]

That's the author's fault for not using genres properly though?

Their argument is that it indicates containing GL and not solely containing GL. There may be multiple relationships, multiple POV main characters with their own relationships, etc.

The whole thing is here: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threa...arge-amount-of-gl-novels-containing-het.3362/

 

[yansusustories]

That's the author's fault for not using genres properly though?

I don't know if you've seen the thread in question but I'd say that, no, that's not necessarily the case. And it ties into what you wrote before:

Use the Series Finder and include the Romance Genre while excluding BL and GL, you'll by exclusion get only BG Romance like this. The lack of homosexual romance is by default hetero romance.

The main problem mentioned in that thread - as I'd paraphrase it - was that stories with bisexual protagonists (or multiple protagonists) do often feature het romance and GL (the thread wasn't about BL but I guess the same would go there). So while the authors do indicate the right genre, people still get results they don't want. The romance genre itself is used not only for het romance as well from what was indicated over there.

Also, not even talking about just that specific thread but if we want to be an open-minded community, then we would need to accept that het, BL, and GL are not the only possible combinations that could be featured for romance stories. I am pretty sure I've seen quite a few romance stories out there already with agender or nb protagonists (no matter what anyone thinks of it IRL, it is a possible combination in stories especially considering that not all protagonists are human and would thus not necessarily even fit the male/female dichotomy). Now, where do you put those? In the romance genre, I'd say. So just filtering out BL and GL wouldn't just leave you with BG even in a story with a single couple.

Quick Edit: Some authors also refuse to ever use BL (can't speak for GL) as a genre and instead pick just romance despite having a gay couple because they refuse to see BL as actual gay romance because of the tropes used. So their stories would be in the overarching romance genre as well (which technically isn't wrong because it's still romance).

 

[bafflinghaze]

Use the Series Finder and include the Romance Genre while excluding BL and GL, you'll by exclusion get only BG Romance like this. The lack of homosexual romance is by default hetero romance.

I don't think het romance should be default, it should be put in the same footing as BL and GL.

Also, what if I wanted to exclude BG romance, as others previously mentioned?

 

[Temple]

It's unneeded.

Use the Series Finder and include the Romance Genre while excluding BL and GL, you'll by exclusion get only BG Romance like this. The lack of homosexual romance is by default hetero romance.

That's the author's fault for not using genres properly though?

They're asking for a reverse of that. There are many people looking for BL/GL but do not want BG included. Which is not possible right now because if there's BG and BL/GL in the same story it will still get tagged as BL/GL while there are people who want to specifically avoid BG.

 

[RepresentingCaution]

Sounds good to me! I support this.

Are we still limited on the number of tags we can use, though? I feel that with an expanding list of tags, we need to allow authors to use more of them, like limit the number of tags we can use to a percentage of the total number of tags available.

 

[yansusustories]

Are we still limited on the number of tags we can use, though? I feel that with an expanding list of tags, we need to allow authors to use more of them, like limit the number of tags we can use to a percentage of the total number of tags available.

I agree with that. Although ... have any tags been actually added so far? I've seen several new tags being suggested (even did a post myself for some), there were some discussions in the threads but I don't think I've ever seen that the list on the site was actually expanded. Do you know anything I don't?

 

[GDLiZy]

Romance is bg by default. No need to complicate things. GL and BL are niches, so they need to be separated from the normal romance, hence the new genres. Otherwise, romance itself will be a meaningless genre.

 

[AliceShiki]

Quick Edit: Some authors also refuse to ever use BL (can't speak for GL) as a genre and instead pick just romance despite having a gay couple because they refuse to see BL as actual gay romance because of the tropes used. So their stories would be in the overarching romance genre as well (which technically isn't wrong because it's still romance).

That's the author's fault for misusing the genres. Not Scribbly's fault.

BL Genre has nothing to do with tropes, it has to do with homosexual romance between men.

I agree with that. Although ... have any tags been actually added so far? I've seen several new tags being suggested (even did a post myself for some), there were some discussions in the threads but I don't think I've ever seen that the list on the site was actually expanded. Do you know anything I don't?

Transgender is one that was added to Scribbly and wasn't a thing in NU. I dunno if there are others, but more tags can be added as needed.

I don't think het romance should be default, it should be put in the same footing as BL and GL.

That's utopic.

They're asking for a reverse of that. There are many people looking for BL/GL but do not want BG included. Which is not possible right now because if there's BG and BL/GL in the same story it will still get tagged as BL/GL while there are people who want to specifically avoid BG.

Their argument is that it indicates containing GL and not solely containing GL. There may be multiple relationships, multiple POV main characters with their own relationships, etc.

The whole thing is here: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threa...arge-amount-of-gl-novels-containing-het.3362/

Also, what if I wanted to exclude BG romance, as others previously mentioned?

The main problem mentioned in that thread - as I'd paraphrase it - was that stories with bisexual protagonists (or multiple protagonists) do often feature het romance and GL (the thread wasn't about BL but I guess the same would go there). So while the authors do indicate the right genre, people still get results they don't want. The romance genre itself is used not only for het romance as well from what was indicated over there.

Then exclude the tags related to bisexual protagonists and multiple protagonists from your search as well. Should solve your issue.

 

[RepresentingCaution]

Romance is bg by default. No need to complicate things.

Relying on defaults is damaging. Relationships only work when there is clear communication between all parties involved. Take monogamy as an example. So many people rely on it as a default but wind up shattered when their partner so much as looks at someone else. Different people have different boundaries and feelings about what should and should not be acceptable in the context of a relationship. It's best to establish these things (or establish that you're still exploring if this is one of your first relationships) before getting involved.

 

[GDLiZy]

Relying on defaults is damaging. Relationships only work when there is clear communication between all parties involved. Take monogamy as an example. So many people rely on it as a default but wind up shattered when their partner so much as looks at someone else. Different people have different boundaries and feelings about what should and should not be acceptable in the context of a relationship. It's best to establish these things (or establish that you're still exploring if this is one of your first relationships) before getting involved.

I feel like we aren't talking about the same thing here.

 

[Moonpearl]

Then exclude the tags related to bisexual protagonists and multiple protagonists from your search as well. Should solve your issue.

No, it doesn't, because that filters out perfectly good GL that have bi protagonists with only girlfriends or multiple GL characters.

A BG genre or tag would help people better find the novels they want to read and takes absolutely nothing away from anyone else.

Romance is bg by default. No need to complicate things. GL and BL are niches, so they need to be separated from the normal romance, hence the new genres. Otherwise, romance itself will be a meaningless genre.

Romance indicates that a story will focus heavily on romance. Just because something has relationships that can be categorised, doesn't mean it's going to belong in the Romance genre. Could be solely sex-focused.

 

[Queenfisher]

Romance is bg by default. No need to complicate things. GL and BL are niches, so they need to be separated from the normal romance, hence the new genres. Otherwise, romance itself will be a meaningless genre.

Then exclude the tags related to bisexual protagonists and multiple protagonists from your search as well. Should solve your issue.

Sorry, but Romance is not BG by default.

"a book or movie dealing with love in a sentimental or idealized way." (Google Defitinion)
"a story about love" (Cambridge)
"(1): a medieval tale based on legend, chivalric love and adventure, or the supernatural
(2): a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious
(3): a love story especially in the form of a novel" (Merriam-Webster)
"a novel, movie, or genre of popular fiction in which characters fall in love or begin a romantic relationship (often used attributively):We knew it was a romance, so we were expecting a happy ending.Romance novels are popular escapist entertainment.
a novel or other prose narrative depicting heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, romantic exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting.
the colorful world, life, or conditions depicted in such tales." (Dictionary.com)

Romance = story about love.

Comes with its own set of tropes and cliches and story beats.

Excluding bi or multiple protagonists ignores the issue of wanting to find BG specifically or to exclude it specifically. What do bi people have to do with it? What if I want to read about romance between two AIs without gender/sex? About alien creatures with 20 genders? About non-binary people? About girl romancing a Sim in a video game? About a boy romancing a planet that takes shape of a dinosaur most of the time and a flower only sometimes?

Should we create a special sub-genre tag for every instance like that? Why not just create a huge genre tag of BG and just filter THAT out to actually be able find everything that falls outside it?

I'm sorry but we have separate fandom tags for:

僕のヒーローアカデミア
My Hero Academia
My hero academia
Boku no my hero academia
Boku no Hiro Academia
Boku no Hero Academia
MHA

and probably others which causes people to kinda wander in all of them because they're so incoherently compartmentalized. But the overarching category of BG that actually gets rid of most complications and genre confusion is too utopic?

That's the author's fault for misusing the genres. Not Scribbly's fault.

BL Genre has nothing to do with tropes, it has to do with homosexual romance between men.

Bara has to do with homosexual romance between men.
Yaoi has to do with homosexual romance between men.
BL has to do with homosexual romance between men.
Shounen Ai as a used term has to do with homosexual romance between men.
Slash has to do with homosexual romance between men.
LGBTQ+ m/m has to do with homosexual romance between men.
Tanbi/danmei has to do with homosexual romance between men.

Some of these subgenres have kinda bad relationships with others. As a person who is somewhat educated with tropes of each of them, it's often super hard to find anything on SH because it makes no distinction between any of these. BL and LGBTQ+ m/m subgenre tropes are ones found most commonly on this site, and even between these two, you have no idea which of these two subgenre tropes you are going to meet in the book you pick on SH.

And LGBTQ+ m/m and BL actually do have conflicting tropes, so a lot of people in LGBTQ+ community are actually turned off from SH because they think it's all BL since that is officially claimed as the ONLY genre tag for the target audience. (Yes, even without giving it a chance to see that a lot of "what gets called BL here" incorporates LGBTQ+ tropes instead).

And your definition is also missing these:

Homoromantic relationships between men,
Homoerotic relationships between men,
And lastly, ~normalization that writes about couples assumed to be m/m but makes zero focus on what you called "Homosexual romance between men".

Now, I struggle with this personally because I actually find both BL and LGBTQ+ m/m genre tropes too restrictive -- but I would not demand any of these subgenres to be recognized by SH for now. In the future, it might benefit from AT LEAST the BL/LGBTQ+ distinction. But to say that BL Genre (subgenre, actually) has nothing to do with tropes is just... .

"BL -- common term used by the publishing industry to categorize works focusing on male/male relationships marketed at women" (Urban Dictionary)
"BL is a genre of fictional media originating in Japan that features homoerotic relationships between male characters. It is typically created by women for women and is distinct from homoerotic media marketed to male audiences" (Wikipedia)
"Boys' love (BL) is the common term used by the publishing industry to categorize works focusing on male/male relationships marketed at women. " (Yaoifandom.com)

And also, just for the sake of it,

"1: dialectal, England : SOUTHERNWOOD
2: WORMWOOD" (Merriam-Webster definition of Boys' Love) And one I stand by, personally!


__________________________________________________

Sorry got so long, but, simply put: all of what I said above stands for GL to some degree as well and for BG.

For BG it stands even in a wider sence.

A lot of BG might not be Romance. I know I might be a weirdo, but I almost exclusively write stories that feature heteroromanticism and heteroeroticism where there is no sexual or sometimes even romantic development between B and G. I WANT to read BG that excludes Romance like I want to read B+B that does not focus or excludes romance as well.

How do I find a book that has a B and a G as main characters but who never think/act/want to bone each other, yet some of their behaviors might be considered heteroromantic by the reader for the sake of tension? (Think Frodo and Sam from LotR. I want to read that but about B and G. And I want it to not even pose the question of sex between them). How do I and others find such a book?

By there being a BG that excludes Romance tag, perhaps?

Sorry -- but I literally don't see how BG = Romance. They can be separate genres, for all I understand about either B&G main characters and Romance as its own genre.

 

[GDLiZy]

Romance indicates that a story will focus heavily on romance. Just because something has relationships that can be categorised, doesn't mean it's going to belong in the Romance genre. Could be solely sex-focused.

We have smut for that.

*snip*

But normal people would assume romance is about bg, unless specified otherwise. Same with smut. It is redundant to have bg genre when romance standing alone is just fine, at least until bg love becomes niche and bl/gl becomes the expectation of the norm.

If we add bg love genre, then romance genre needs to be removed, and that would cause a huge technical problem to the site.

 

[Queenfisher]

We have smut for that.

But normal people would assume romance is about bg, unless specified otherwise. Same with smut. It is redundant to have bg genre when romance standing alone is just fine, at least until bg love becomes niche and bl/gl becomes the expectation of the norm.

If we add bg love genre, then romance genre needs to be removed, and that would cause a huge technical problem to the site.

Why would Romance be removed? It specifies the direction and the main genre of the story whereas BG/GL/BL specifies the flavor.

Like Steampunk/Magic Academy are flavors, but the actual genre of the book would be Mystery/Romance/Action. (Or like oatmeal and eggs'n'bacon are usually breakfast meals, but you can eat them at dinner as well. Oatmeal =/= breakfast). It's the same way. If you imply that all BL = romance or all BG = romance, that spells disaster for a lot of authors and readers, , me in particular...

Thus, I find it super useful that I can not add Romance Genre Tag to my BL/GL story, for example, because the fact that they're separate implies the Boys Love and Girls Love are NOT actually romances, at least on SH. Why shouldn't BG be the same?

But normal people would assume romance is about bg,

I understand this concern, though. I just don't get how a small subgenre tag would overhaul the entire category that is, on its own, a separate genre. Most normal people wouldn't even notice it there.

 

[Moonpearl]

We have smut for that.

And it's separate from Romance for a reason, reinforcing my point that relationships don't equal a Romance genre.

But normal people would assume romance is about bg, unless specified otherwise. Same with smut. It is redundant to have bg genre when romance standing alone is just fine, at least until bg love becomes niche and bl/gl becomes the expectation of the norm.

If we add bg love genre, then romance genre needs to be removed, and that would cause a huge technical problem to the site.

"Normal" people are going to get further along and find that their assumptions don't help them that much when trying to find things.


Also, the MtF, FtM and Genderless Protagonist tags don't render the Gender Bender genre pointless. They just help narrow down your search.

 

[GDLiZy]

Why would Romance be removed? It specifies the direction and the main genre of the story whereas BG/GL/BL specifies the flavor.

Like Steampunk/Magic Academy are flavors, but the actual genre of the book would be Mystery/Romance/Action. (Or like oatmeal and eggs'n'bacon are usually breakfast meals, but you can eat them at dinner as well. Oatmeal =/= breakfast). It's the same way. If you imply that all BL = romance or all BG = romance, that spells disaster for a lot of authors and readers, , me in particular...

Thus, I find it super useful that I can not add Romance Genre Tag to my BL/GL story, for example, because the fact that they're separate implies the Boys Love and Girls Love are NOT actually romances, at least on SH. Why shouldn't BG be the same?



I understand this concern, though. I just don't get how a small subgenre tag would overhaul the entire category that is, on its own, a separate genre. Most normal people wouldn't even notice it there.

Romance will become a filler genre when there is GL/BL/BG genre. We have GL/BL genres because they are niches big enough to be separated from the normal romance (I would argue that the way is to make GL, BL, and BG tags instead, but technical problems).

Are you telling me that Boy LOVE and Girl LOVE aren't romance? What?

And it's separate from Romance for a reason, reinforcing my point that relationships don't equal a Romance genre.


"Normal" people are going to get further along and find that their assumptions don't help them that much when trying to find things.


Also, the MtF, FtM and Genderless Protagonist tags don't render the Gender Bender genre pointless. They just help narrow down your search.

And smut is very much porn. It is romance but heavily R18, so it needs to make itself distinct from the normal lovely dovely romance.

Tag and genre search system here works just fine. If they want something more specific, they will have a harder than to find things and no amount of work will prevent that. (Paradoxically, if we have every too specific, everything gets worse for everyone.)

Those are tags, not genres. They are complements to the big genres. (Which is also why I want BL/GL to be tags instead of genre. I won't mind BG tag, but if GL and BL are still genres, then BG tag is redundant.)