D&D style class level and perks in novels, does it actually makes sense?

[NotaNuffian]

So I was blown away by Nightwatcher's class and level system which gave up to nine classes each their own level perks, similar to how xianxia cultivation ranks are.

For example, the martial artist has nine levels, each level representing what the person will get, such as level 1 is endless stamina, level 2 is qi blast and level 3 is sixth sense. This is kind of similar to how cultivation works.

Then it hit me.

This is just D&D style but only up to level nine and chinese.

My concern however is as such though, doesn't this force all those in the same class such as martial artists to have similar to same techniques because technically they have the same skill tree?

How does D&D the game mitigate such issue?

 

[Our_Lady_in_Twilight]

I suppose if you conceive of your class as a single 'choice', D&D's answer is just to provide lots more dependent choices. You want to be a fighter, ok do you want to be a battlemaster, or eldritch knight, or horse-riding cavalier? What weapons do you want to be expert in? What feats will you take? Do you want to multiclass - maybe you could hybrid with a monk and be a warrior moderately proficient with martial arts but clad in full plate armour.

Also, magic users often choose a limited selection of spells from a levelled list, and this might be something easily implemented into the martial arts system as well (I think it actually is in the more complex Pathfinder ruleset). Suppose at level 3 a martial artist gets to learn a ki-enhanced punch from a list of options. Some might use their energy to add a firey corona to the blow, others might punch more quickly or with greater force to create a ranged wind blast. The ki-punch is the level 3 standard, but there's a few varieties that different warriors could specialise in.

 

[Arkus86]

Is it conceptually any different from a simple, generic LitRPG? Limited skill choices tied to level-ups are kind of a staple... The choices are the same for pretty much every person with the same class, but after a point there is enough of those choices to make most higher levels different from one another. Unless there is some organization enforcing picking the same choices for its members.

Vast majority of systems in novels make no sense if you think about it at all, but clearly the formula works.

 

[corruption]

Don't forget background, because despite all starting off the same levels, that battle hardened folk hero and that village farmer have different histories.
What I don't like is being stuck by not being able to learn skills from other subclasses, or the class design is bad. The Mastermind and Assassin or Burglar all are Rogues.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Is it conceptually any different from a simple, generic LitRPG? Limited skill choices tied to level-ups are kind of a staple... The choices are the same for pretty much every person with the same class, but after a point there is enough of those choices to make most higher levels different from one another. Unless there is some organization enforcing picking the same choices for its members.

Vast majority of systems in novels make no sense if you think about it at all, but clearly the formula works.

Iirc from the example of Nightwatcher, NO.

The fact is that at every level, the skill given is the same. At level 4 it is Iron Body.

If you are lucky, you can train a higher form of martial arts and get Golden Body.

But still, all level 4 martial artist gets a variant of Iron Body.

Same when they are level 2 Ki blast. The difference in technique is mostly cosmetic, you either fire off a dragon shaped ki blast or dog shaped ki blast, in the end, all level 2 martial artists fire ki blast.

Don't forget background, because despite all starting off the same levels, that battle hardened folk hero and that village farmer have different histories.
What I don't like is being stuck by not being able to learn skills from other subclasses, or the class design is bad. The Mastermind and Assassin or Burglar all are Rogues.

Same. I hate it when no variation, because it locks the difference between classes but not between people within the same class.

I suppose if you conceive of your class as a single 'choice', D&D's answer is just to provide lots more dependent choices. You want to be a fighter, ok do you want to be a battlemaster, or eldritch knight, or horse-riding cavalier? What weapons do you want to be expert in? What feats will you take? Do you want to multiclass - maybe you could hybrid with a monk and be a warrior moderately proficient with martial arts but clad in full plate armour.

Also, magic users often choose a limited selection of spells from a levelled list, and this might be something easily implemented into the martial arts system as well (I think it actually is in the more complex Pathfinder ruleset). Suppose at level 3 a martial artist gets to learn a ki-enhanced punch from a list of options. Some might use their energy to add a firey corona to the blow, others might punch more quickly or with greater force to create a ranged wind blast. The ki-punch is the level 3 standard, but there's a few varieties that different warriors could specialise in.

Makes sense.

But here I am talking about example of lacking the branching subclasses.

Picture this, there are two barbarians at the same level fighting against one another. Ignoring initial stat rolls, roll advantages and look at them purely on the same skills they get because they are at the same level.

This kind of fight doesn't make sense.

 

[Madmcgee]

Makes sense.

But here I am talking about example of lacking the branching subclasses.

Picture this, there are two barbarians at the same level fighting against one another. Ignoring initial stat rolls, roll advantages and look at them purely on the same skills they get because they are at the same level.

This kind of fight doesn't make sense.

Maybe consider individual experiences at that point? I mean, their not necessarily game characters, in theory, you can have a guy whose trained in a dojo or something to get where he is, and another guy that's fought in wars to get where he has. Both are the same level, with the same system skills, but they might not fight the same way.

DnD also does multi classing, right? You could throw that into the mix, no branches, just strait up taking skills from other classes.

 

[Fairemont]

D&D is a garbage system and I will not be silenced!

 

[LuoirM]

D&D is a garbage system and I will not be silenced!

The mental asylum only silence people when they're screaming

 

[Alski]

D&D is a garbage system and I will not be silenced!

Thats why i prefer pathfinder

 

[NotaNuffian]

Maybe consider individual experiences at that point? I mean, their not necessarily game characters, in theory, you can have a guy whose trained in a dojo or something to get where he is, and another guy that's fought in wars to get where he has. Both are the same level, with the same system skills, but they might not fight the same way.

DnD also does multi classing, right? You could throw that into the mix, no branches, just strait up taking skills from other classes.

True.

I just don't find it makes much sense for ALL martial artists to follow the same evo path though.

Like I said earlier, the path is rigid, level 1 the person gets endless stamina, level 2 ki blast, level 3 sixth sense and level 4 is Iron Body (increase body toughness)

While the in story lore is that the heavenly dao made it such a way and this is the tried and true method of level progression, it felt like the entire martial arts is just funnelled down a production line like xianxia cultivation.

What about those who studied the Joestar technique, or the not-standing-around-and-get-whacked-like-an-idiot technique? The story has an explanation for them. They are all subpar skills to be picked up. True martial artists take fist to face like a chad.

 

[xedale]

In a good cultivation system, each realm grants the ability to learn a new type of skill, not skills themselves.

Like, one realm gives you the ability to spend the energy you've gathered to temporarily grant your body certain properties, another realm gives you the ability to create and cultivate new biological and energy organs that feed from the energy your body absorbs and must not conflict with each other, another realm gives you the ability to use energy outside of your body, another one grants you access to large quantities of a certain type of energy, another one lets you use your consciousness outside of your body, another one lets you modify certain laws of nature within your radius of influence...

This way, each new realm allows you to sacrifice your time for all sorts of different skills.

And stages are rarely strict; there are almost always methods to improve any quality of your system, as long as you think the gains are worth the cost (time).

 

[NotaNuffian]

In a good cultivation system, each realm grants the ability to learn a new type of skill, not skills themselves.

Like, one realm gives you the ability to spend the energy you've gathered to temporarily grant your body certain properties, another realm gives you the ability to create and cultivate new biological and energy organs that feed from the energy your body absorbs and must not conflict with each other, another realm gives you the ability to use energy outside of your body, another one grants you access to large quantities of a certain type of energy, another one lets you use your consciousness outside of your body, another one lets you modify certain laws of nature within your radius of influence...

This way, each new realm allows you to sacrifice your time for all sorts of different skills.

And stages are rarely strict; there are almost always methods to improve any quality of your system, as long as you think the gains are worth the cost (time).

So still a rigid coherent flow?

Might be how my eyes are wide open now but a formulaic process from human to god is always a rigid step by step.

 

[JHarp]

So I was blown away by Nightwatcher's class and level system which gave up to nine classes each their own level perks, similar to how xianxia cultivation ranks are.

For example, the martial artist has nine levels, each level representing what the person will get, such as level 1 is endless stamina, level 2 is qi blast and level 3 is sixth sense. This is kind of similar to how cultivation works.

Then it hit me.

This is just D&D style but only up to level nine and chinese.

My concern however is as such though, doesn't this force all those in the same class such as martial artists to have similar to same techniques because technically they have the same skill tree?

How does D&D the game mitigate such issue?

The main issue with tabletop systems is that the medium requires it to have persistent 'traits' and abilities for levelling. It reduces the massive mental load on the player when there aren't 50+ different options for skills per level, not to mention that classes are already a form of specialisation.

For many tabletop games, the rules can't be made on the spot. They were written potentially years ago by third parties who might never see your game, so there are stricter rulesets and guidelines regardless of homebrew content. Anything further than that shifts from a tabletop game to negotiating a novel with six other players at the table in real time.

The whole point for players is a predictable structured framework. GMs/DMs need to be able to predict and work around limitations, including how players are likely to approach problems or challenges. The moment you open up the whole system as a 'free for all', you would have too much going on for anyone to communicate with other players.
Writing is a different medium, single author. If something is intended to be unbalanced, it will be (hopefully) consistent across other characters and abilities; there are no 'hidden' workarounds or other ace abilities that a solo author won't figure out if they plan to use.

Many of the Xianxia get away with 'classes' as the different 'techniques' meaning movement, attack, defence, support and then providing a massive 'spell list' per section, all subjective and responsive to the author's whims. The 'infinite' synergies from those mixing of what are otherwise 'spells' run you into the same min-maxxing stuff mainstay tabletop games have, where you can multiclass and try to max out damage or healing or some other way of playing.

Xianxia has an infinite toolkit by design, custom moves, hidden artefacts, scrolls, and any number of 'there are bigger fish' setups is the whole point. It isn't a distinctly curated progression.

Subclasses, optional features and many other factors add variance and flavour, preventing some classes from feeling 'samey'. However, half the intent is replayability, not to simulate the 'real world'.

The inherent bonuses, feats, and other features that mainline fantasy tabletop games hand out are meant to give classes a distinct visual identity. There have been many systems where people get inherent or racial bonuses and the same starting plate regardless of how they choose to use whatever abilities they end up with; especially in systems focused on point buy and other customisation setups.

Archetypes are half the selling point for tabletop-style fantasy. Almost anything with a class system styled after it with base classes and variance within it will show that. Systems like D&D, Pathfinder and many others solve sameness by character design, subclasses, and optional content. Xianxia solves it by not needing to be innately coherent in every instance.
There are only a few tabletop examples of Xianxia style progression, to the point that I can't name one offhand. I'm sure they exist in some form. But the whole style and selling point of the genre doesn't need strong balance and coherence. Many of the ones that seem to exist on the market require heavy story focus and are narratively heavy to railroad the story enough to constrain some of the more esoteric options.

 

[Fariy]

Ah DND with its level system. I personally write my own system and have cut the level part. Mostly because it is eivery restrictive and a reliable indicator or it’s useless.

it also creates some problems like HP Bloat, unusable Monsters Stats.
The only Level I have is the ability rang. It goes up from 0 (not learned) to 4 (mastered). The higher the rang is the more different uses of abilities is possible.

For example.
With Hydrokinese rang 1 it is possible to attack, find water and boil cool it.
rang 2 allows the user to also create water shields and equipment.
Rang 4 allows the user to deflect water attacks back. (Dice check against the offensive value)

That be said if you look out at other ttrpg systems they then not all follow into DnD gigantic footsteps.

 

[Jerynboe]

The version I’ve seen that seems most reasonable for the sake of storytelling is that your class gives you a few set abilities and a lot of mutually exclusive optional abilities. Further, there’s a small number of those optional abilities that have no prerequisites but the overwhelming majority require something to unlock them.

For example: Jimmy the warlock and Tammy the warlock both get Dark Secrets at level one of warlock, and that gives them the basic spellcasting that all warlocks have, and they each choose or are randomly assigned a few spells. Jimmy chooses Life Drain and Fear, Tammy goes with Fel Flames and Dark Infusion.

They reach their first breakpoint, let’s say level 5, and both are offered Summon Familiar as an option, as every warlock does.

However, Jimmy can also pick Feed on Fear, which lets him passively use life drain on anyone who is under a fear effect with no additional cost. His dad was a warlock so he knew about this combo and built around it. He can now stunlock most level appropriate enemies to death and will use this combo to grind for levels.

Tammy is given Dark Metamorphosis as an option, which pumps up the effectiveness of her dark infusion buff spell when she uses it on herself, letting her turn into a melee capable demon form (and unlocking a lot of additional abilities leaning into that demon form at later levels.) She is also the daughter of a clock maker with the Artisan class, who taught her the basics of his trade, so she’s surprised to find Construct Mechademon as an option, which is an alternative form Summon Familiar where you build your pet demon a robot body to possess. This makes them way harder to hide and nerfs their magic, but makes them physically stronger.

By level 25, Jimmy has a Hellhound bodyguard and can apply fear effects even against things that don’t normally feel fear, like mindless golems. Tammy is running around in demon possessed power armor straight out of Warhammer 40k and is only slightly worse at fighting than your average paladin, but in turn has stronger magic than said paladin (who only gets spellcasting at all if their faith stat is high and they choose that optional ability)

Both are warlocks, but their chosen builds are radically different, so the way they present is radically different.

This is also how D&D 3.5 operated, in broad strokes. It was an unbalanced trashfire of a system, but immensely customizable. The fact that the majority of builds were essentially traps from a powergaming perspective isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. There were SO MANY classes and prestige classes and feats and templates and secondary systems to draw upon.

In a world that operated on D&D 3.5, most people wouldn’t have perfectly planned out builds. Most people wouldn’t know that if you go to seminary then drop out the moment that the god of knowledge gives you his blessing you’ll be objectively better at fighting than a person who was studying the blade. Most Truenamers would be studying that magic to learn the source code of the universe for esoteric magic reasons, not for its frankly abysmal combat applications.

You’d possibly end up with something akin to them old families in cultivation novels where they hoard the secrets and resources that will allow people to become immortal kung fu gods away from the masses. This one family KNOWS that if you take the blade modification to Eldritch Blast and Quicken Spell-Like ability and Maximize Spell-Like Ability that will allow you to absolutely delete someone in close quarters a few times a day. And they aren’t even the strongest family, not by a long shot.

 

[NotaNuffian]

@Our_Lady_in_Twilight @Arkus86 @corruption @Madmcgee @Fairemont @RepresentingTaoism @Alski @xedale @JHarp37 @Fariy @Jerynboe thank you all for your participation.

I feel like because I said D&D, everyone's answer is pretty much standard at subclasses.

Which is correct, technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Still it does not solve my gripe with the chinese rigid path to godhood.

Then it hit me, it is rigid because it is meant to be rigid.

As the work already complained, why bother go looking for own path when there is a tried and true method to go down on? Suck air, liquify air, solidify liquid to marble, mpreg and peanut. Tried and true.

Same as martial artist, first make body train to limitless stamina, then learn ki blast, then make sixth sense, then Iron Body, Ki spam, Will Over World.

There is a path because any other paths had long been discarded or made obselete, the path is meta.

So for anyone who isn't actively training on the level provided skills and instead continuously dabble on outside-class skills is moronic. Like how cultivators who dabbled on pill making forgetting that it is their qi level that makes the difference.

 

[Jerynboe]

I feel like because I said D&D, everyone's answer is pretty much standard at subclasses.

Which is correct, technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Still it does not solve my gripe with the chinese rigid path to godhood.

Then it hit me, it is rigid because it is meant to be rigid.

As the work already complained, why bother go looking for own path when there is a tried and true method to go down on? Suck air, liquify air, solidify liquid to marble, mpreg and peanut. Tried and true.

Same as martial artist, first make body train to limitless stamina, then learn ki blast, then make sixth sense, then Iron Body, Ki spam, Will Over World.

There is a path because any other paths had long been discarded or made obselete, the path is meta.

So for anyone who isn't actively training on the level provided skills and instead continuously dabble on outside-class skills is moronic. Like how cultivators who dabbled on pill making forgetting that it is their qi level that makes the difference.

This works as an explanation if we have a few assumptions made for the system
1. The system has been mathed out to the point where a consensus has been made and everyone of importance knows at least one meta build that can handle most situations.
2. Everyone cares about optimization.
3. The amount of resources invested are comparable on all known paths
4. Counterplay doesn’t meaningfully exist.

So, continuing my earlier example from 3.5, the optimization community has six tiers they sort classes into, in descending order of power and flexibility.

The biggest and most powerful houses would probably be running builds from the so-called tier 1 classes. Wizard, Archivist, Spell-to-power Erudite, artificer, etc, because these are the classes that can do EVERYTHING well.

HOWEVER. Tier 2 classes, such as Sorcerer, Psion, and Favored Soul, would still have space because they can do ANYTHING well, but they need to dedicate themselves to that one thing. Why are tier 2s worth pursuing in this hypothetical? Because a Wizard, Archivist, Erudite, or artificer needs to spend a frankly jaw dropping amount of time and money to reach the point of near omnipotence and until they have reached that point their tier 2 counterparts can probably take them one on one. Even when they do, two tier 2s could probably take them and there will be more than 2 tier 2s for every tier 1 due to the extreme investment.

Tier 3s, ironically considered to be the best balance point for a fun and balanced game, are defined as being specialized in a single role they don’t get to choose, or being ok at everything. If a Warblade gets into close combat with a Wizard of the same level, there is still a meaningful chance the Wizard will lose. Further, they get good faster than the Wizard. They are only tier 3 because they are strictly melee.
Binders, similarly, get very strong very fast by allowing Eldritch beings to semi-possess them, but their power roof is below that of a sorcerer. However, the Anima Mage prestige class alloys together sorcerer and Binder in a way that makes the sorcerer only slightly weaker but gives them access to a much more well rounded and adjustable tool kit.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have the Healer, which is legitimately better at healing than any tier 1 class and narratively nowhere near as tough to level … it’s just that a combat style that is purely reactive is inherently at a disadvantage against one that can be proactive or reactive as necessary.

It is only when one gets to tier 5 or 6 that a same level wizard would basically always be on even footing, if not outright superior. Even there, some of the classes have strange and unique abilities that can not be replicated anywhere else, like the Truenamer’s ability to un-counter a spell that has been dispelled, causing it to resume functioning. It’s not worth it to be a truenamer (one of the most memetically bad classes in 3.5) just for that, but it’s worth noting that no one else can do it.

There is a massive difference between choosing the meta path and the meta path being all there is. Further, the team meta may be very different than the solo meta, which also may be different from the faction-level meta (where you might have entire subfactions dedicated to supporting the main faction by making magic items, acting as a bodyguard, or providing them with buffs).

 

[xedale]

@Our_Lady_in_Twilight @Arkus86 @corruption @Madmcgee @Fairemont @RepresentingTaoism @Alski @xedale @JHarp37 @Fariy @Jerynboe thank you all for your participation.

I feel like because I said D&D, everyone's answer is pretty much standard at subclasses.

Which is correct, technically correct. The best kind of correct.

Still it does not solve my gripe with the chinese rigid path to godhood.

Then it hit me, it is rigid because it is meant to be rigid.

As the work already complained, why bother go looking for own path when there is a tried and true method to go down on? Suck air, liquify air, solidify liquid to marble, mpreg and peanut. Tried and true.

Same as martial artist, first make body train to limitless stamina, then learn ki blast, then make sixth sense, then Iron Body, Ki spam, Will Over World.

There is a path because any other paths had long been discarded or made obselete, the path is meta.

So for anyone who isn't actively training on the level provided skills and instead continuously dabble on outside-class skills is moronic. Like how cultivators who dabbled on pill making forgetting that it is their qi level that makes the difference.

A god can use any ability. A human can only use human abilities. So when you move from a human to a god, methodically unlocking every range, step after step, from the easiest to the hardest, makes perfect sense. And, like I said, it is perfectly possible for 2 cultivators in the same realm to not have a single shared ability. Even if their abilities have the same "range".

I've seen attempts to introduce completely different paths, but even the best of them feel forced. A Regressor’s Tale of Cultivation is one example. But even if the path is the same, there can be many different ways to achieve the same realm that come with unique advantages and disadvantages.

 

[TumblingMice]

Don't overthink D&D mechanics. Tabletop RPGs grapple with problems specific to the medium:

• They skew towards less bookkeeping: this is why D&D doesn't track sword swings for fighter progression.
• They have to provide enough options to make people feel like they have a choice and to let the theorycrafters theorycraft, and yet
• They have to provide few enough options that a player looking at all the options, at least in a single rulebook, is not overwhelmed, and also
• Someone has to write, or code for computer RPGs, the damn thing. Designing and implementing options takes a lot of work.
• They have to communicate to a player who is not in the world their character is in what their character and others are capable of.

On the other hand, there are things that LitRPGs can use. Levels easily communicate power: two level 5s are about as strong. Classes communicate role: two rogues might approach a locked door similarly, at least relative to a paladin.

When writing, you aren't constrained by the number of choices available: there are always the appropriate amount. You don't have to worry about bookkeeping. You don't need to worry about options, as the mechanics serve the story. You don't have to communicate the world to the player, because there is no player.

Ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by adding game mechanics to a story. Are you trying to communicate power and role? Class names and levels should be plenty. Are you trying to get a sense of progression? You might want a few numeric stats. Are you trying to make it obvious how a character is forging their destiny? Explicitly present diverging paths at a level up, such as fire vs ice magic for a wizard. Are you just going for the gamer fantasy? Sprinkle in some square brackets and call it a day. The system doesn't have to exist in a coherent form, and the more effort you spend the more it'll get in the way.

As for whether two rogues need to be the same in your world, or two xianxia martial artists, that's up to whether you think it's appropriate for the story you're telling. If tens of thousands of people are trying to follow in the footsteps of someone who attained godhood, yeah, they're probably following that person's textbook. But maybe the next one who succeeds does so precisely because they think outside the box? Or maybe they don't, and the textbook is the textbook for a reason. For minor characters, making them similar serves the story: the reader doesn't care about rogue #512's unique powers any more than they care about his best friend's favourite food, even if they may care about the protagonist's unique powers and personal relationships.