Perfect Prose Is Dead

[Jemini]

Also? I'm not saying there aren't any good stories being told, or any media being released, just that there's been a general acceptance in the decrease of quality in books specifically.

As for technical writing, no offense but the LN for mushoku tensei is some of the worst stuff I've ever read in my life. P*do fantasy garbage. As for other recent novels that have literary claim, The Nickel Boys came out in 2019, we've also got Life of Pi and The Kite Runner (Plus Brandon Sanderson) so it's not like there's nothing. But at the same time there's a "tiktokification" happening in publishing where only a few types of books are uplifted, and quantity over quality takes over.

You can think what you like about the books, but MT was rated #1 for 3 years in a row and it also had the most influence of the 5 in terms of the effect it had on the Isekai story tropes moving forward. And, all of the reasons it succeeded were on the technical level. It wasn't the romance angle, it was the way it handled things like suffering and redemption. It was all about an acknowledgement that Rudy really was scum in the past, and he's trying to do better now, and not necessarily succeeding.

(Also, the pedo stuff is legit cast as a bad thing in the series. He does marry the 3 of them, but it's only when he and they are both of age. He is still seen as a sexual deviant, but pedo shit is no longer among the list of his crimes. Also, he can be redeemed specifically because he never went beyond just perving when they were younger. He never actually went all the way... although a couple scenes with Eries in book 2 got uncomfortably close. That was while he was still in his scum arc though. So, with redemption being an item on the menu, well... up to you to decide whether it's forgivable considering how things went later. Honestly, I'm of the opinion he wasn't fully redeemed, too many things that mixed the message later on, but that's the nature of good art. It seems to have an aversion to making things easy. It was more about making him a mess than making something that makes the audience feel good. And, he did act like a far more decent guy once he turned 16, and even more decent after he got married, then even more decent still once he had his first kid.)

 

[WinterTimeCrime]

As a person with author friends, I've found two types of writers: those trying to write to impress and those trying to make money.

If you don't want to conform to the market, then go get a day job as an accountant or something and let writing be a hobby. But if you want to make this a career, then suck it, buttercup, and get ready to write some overpowered harem shit with tons of borderline non-consensual sex.

SAY IT WITH ME: "I LIVE IN A HYPER-CAPITALIST ECONOMY, AND I'M TRYING TO MAKE BANK AND RETIRE BEFORE 30, SO IMA WRITE BILLIONAIRE WEREWOLF CEO HAREM OVERPOWERED SYSTEM WITH TOOONS OF GOON MATERIAL."

EVERYONE SAY IT WITH ME !!!

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Also? I'm not saying there aren't any good stories being told, or any media being released, just that there's been a general acceptance in the decrease of quality in books specifically.

This is not exclusive to books. Compare the music (or just about any art form, really) of 30 years ago, or 50, or 100 years ago to what comes out today. There is a lot of good stuff out there, but there is also a lot of simplistic trash - and there is so much MORE stuff out there, it is easier to see the trash than the good stuff in any medium.
Sadly, the "rule" that "90% of everything is crap" does seem pretty close to the truth, the 20% of everything that makes money, only includes half of the 10% of good stuff, it seems...

I never would, but I'm very aware that it would be much more marketable to just turn off my brain and write a 200 page werewolf f*ck-fiction book and cash in, and the thought weighs heavy on me.

I am so sick of werewolves and vampires getting all of the action. Keep dredging out one with a mummy and doing a chapter or so a month. Will probably get to the sexy parts in about three more months....

Perfect prose, huh? Well, language is dynamic, and alive, as my college educ prof says. It changes over time, so what may be popular now, may not be later. Still, write what you want to write about.

Timeless prose is not perfect, and may sometimes be closer to poetry than prose (c.f. the works of William Shakespeare, or many of the foundational books of various world mythologies; stuff that survives to today, in multiple translations). Far from perfect, and some of it was not successful at the time it came out but is still read today

That "leave it to the imagination" crap is just a laziness tactic because the writer either can't do it, won't do it because they want to get to the next round of punching and/or fucking, or their readers have the attention span of a goldfish.

Eh, it can be effective to leave a lot to the reader's imagination - it is how some of the best short to mid-length horror stories "work." And there are people like the late Robert Jordan - in the first book of The Wheel of Time, I was in awe of his ability to describe everything (except his characters - generally we just got one defining trait and a general sketch but few real details there - but I did not even notice this until they cast the TV version) and even, briefly, tried to emulate it in my own writing. By the third book, I was wishing he had my ability to not describe stuff and just plow through because descriptions of stuff seemed to occupy about 1/4 of each novel, maybe more.

 

[Cipiteca396]

EVERYONE SAY IT WITH ME !!!

I am so sick of werewolves and vampires getting all of the action. Keep dredging out one with a mummy and doing a chapter or so a month. Will probably get to the sexy parts in about three more months....

For some reason, mummies are really into bandage.

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I guess I should give an actual reply, though...

There's still a surprisingly large audience for descriptive scenes, so it's not that bad. Saying things are deteriorating is also not that accurate. There's always been trashy stuff, it just didn't survive long enough to become a 'classic'.

So yeah... Just write what you want to write, and don't worry about useless stuff.

Post merge paradise~.

 

[Gray_Mann]

but I did not even notice this until they cast the TV version

The Wheel of Time show was an abomination. So much of the cast was poorly chosen and didn't fit their characters, looks or otherwise. Then they butchered entire sections of the plot, rewrote or removed others, added nonsensical details and side plots that I STILL don't understand what the purpose of was.....it's just a TERRIBLE adaptation.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

The Wheel of Time show was an abomination. So much of the cast was poorly chosen and didn't fit their characters, looks or otherwise. Then they butchered entire sections of the plot, rewrote or removed others, added nonsensical details and side plots that I STILL don't understand what the purpose of was.....it's just a TERRIBLE adaptation.

Seems hard to get characters who only have a hair color and maybe one other trait described (and most of the women are "Ageless" due to magic) wrong, but they basically only got Rand, Al-Lan, and Thom Merrilin even close, though I did like their choices for Perrin and Moiraine and not much else.

 

[Jocelyn_Uasal]

And, he did act like a far more decent guy once he turned 16, and even more decent after he got married, then even more decent still once he had his first kid.)

Seconds after finding out his first wife is pregnant, he thinks something like "I wouldn't mind having sex with my little sister at all (who is, don't forget, a literal child), but it would mess with the family dynamic too much"

Normal people don't have these thoughts, those are actual predator thoughts.

I'm also starting to think that when you say 'technical writing' you mean 'good writing/story', and not what it actually means. Stuff like proper sentence structure, maintaining adverbs, vivid descriptions and letting your sentences and paragraphs talk to each other rather than roll over one another; this is all what I am expecting when I look for technically impressive literature. To Kill a Mocking Bird was technically impressive and, as for web novels that made it big, The Martian was also technically impressive, and setting a MT LN next to either of these books would make it obvious just how lacking it is. I can't speak on the original Japanese obviously, but the English translations can be summed up as:

"I do this.
Then we do this.
Afterwards we do this."

I feel uncomfortable trashing something I haven't seen, so I promise I've seen and read almost all of it, and that only further cemented my opinion. This is not a problem with the translations, surely, because other LN's I've read are of wonderful quality, even the fan translations.

then go get a day job as an accountant or something and let writing be a hobby

I would argue that the majority of NYT best selling authors are not full-time authors, and also have a day job

 

[WinterTimeCrime]

I would argue that the majority of NYT best selling authors are not full-time authors, and also have a day job

Because NYT best-sellers don't mean, 'the book is hugely successful and is making me tons of money,' on some Harry Potter money type shit; it simply means either it made a significant amount of sales in one week or the NYT editorial team (which has been sued for its subjectivity) found it adequate enough to spotlight.

Then you also have to understand most authored books with that little gold sticker, buy about 5-10k copies at the start, then use their publishing company's clout to speedrun their way to awards and accolades. Or they can take the easy way out and buy the darn thing and bot reviews on retailer sites.

These authors use these distinctions to promote their businesses or products or pronounce their 'experts' in whatever field they analyze. I don't know why anyone would idolize the American novel award system, as it has always been a sham.

 

[Corty]

Everyone arguing here about prose, me in the corner:

 

[Jemini]

Seconds after finding out his first wife is pregnant, he thinks something like "I wouldn't mind having sex with my little sister at all (who is, don't forget, a literal child), but it would mess with the family dynamic too much"

Normal people don't have these thoughts, those are actual predator thoughts.

Like I said, the messiness of art. I also said I did not think he was fully redeemed due to certain messy mitigating factors. But, there's ground to say action Vs. thought here. If you look at his actions, apart from bigomy, he did not actually act on any of his depraved thoughts from the moment he reached 16, and he instead improved his behavior to be more in line with what would actually make him a good person for those around him.

It has often been pointed out that many of the best leaders in history had a dark side to them. They accomplish great things, but they have their flaws. In the case of Rudeus Greyrat, those flaws are quite a bit more severe than the ones most people will have. That's exactly what makes him an inspiration. If that absolute piece of scum can outwardly play the role of a good person, you can too. I'm sure your flaws are not worse than his, so you too are worthy of redemption.

That's the real message behind Mushoku Tensei.

Also, by technical, I mean excellent handling of theme and message, and doing other things that are technically impressive.

I still rate Ascendance of a Bookworm as the #1 most impressive piece of writing I have ever seen. Reason being, it is a series of over 30 books, and in all those 30 books, there is not a single scene in the entire series that doesn't move forward at least 3 important points. Every single last scene in that MASSIVE run-length is there for a purpose and it accomplishes several very important things at once, even the ones that feel like light-hearted goofiness and fun. And every scene also manages to just casually weave in details and worldbuilding without feeling intrusive to the story quite naturally.

That is an entirely different kind of technical writing from individual sentence structure, but it is no less impressive or technical.

 

[justabot]

Locked on OP's request