Are manga/anime/LNs falling into the same trap as western media?

[RepresentingPride]

These years, the trend are mostly isekai trash. I have nothing against isekai, but the virgin who go sent in another world and can't talk correctly to a girl really bother me.

Edit: Also the animation become more easier and more trashier with the cgi.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Maybe the trends of tropes don't currently align with what you enjoy?

Anyone who disagrees with me will mention this. And you can move even further and say that "you can't measure and rate art." Obviously my subjective dislike\like is present, but I feel like I have at least some objective criterias. Though, those who disagree with my opinion will obviously disagree with my criterias for evaluating art, and obviously say my methods and approach it wrong as well. Yes, this conversation is pointless. However, since I have some free time, might as well waste it on pointless discussion that won't lead to anything and potentially might sour my or other people mood.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

These years, the trend are mostly isekai trash. I have nothing against isekai, but the virgin who go sent in another world and can't talk correctly to a girl really bother me.

I think that is just relatable to the Japanese shut-in/hikikomori, so more and more of those got popular as people became withdrawn from society.

 

[owotrucked]

These years, the trend are mostly isekai trash. I have nothing against isekai, but the virgin who go sent in another world and can't talk correctly to a girl really bother me.

Edit: Also the animation become more easier and more trashier with the cgi.

So you prefer the virgin born in another world

jk but coming of age story pretty much require mc to start out at the lowest tier of existence

 

[ThrillingHuman]

I think that is just relatable to the Japanese shut-in/hikikomori, so more and more of those got popular as people became withdrawn from society.

there can't be that many of them. Wikipedia says there is around a million of those people, and that's too small a number, frankly, to matter.
But fucking quitting when you are fed up is supremely based.

I feel it's people feeling unimportant and like losers and alone even when they are not that is the problem. Any normal person will feel like they are some loser who can't do socialisation when society becomes more and more callous to people and community loses its power as a person is reduced to nothing but a cog in the machine and you don't even know the name or face of your neighbour anymore and meet your family like once a month and work and make a measly day-to-day living like you're some kind of drone until you're too old and you get thrown aside. This is what makes this kind of character relatable to far more than some million of shut-ins.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Anyone who disagrees with me will mention this. And you can move even further and say that "you can't measure and rate art." Obviously my subjective dislike\like is present, but I feel like I have at least some objective criterias. Though, those who disagree with my opinion will obviously disagree with my criterias for evaluating art, and obviously say my methods and approach it wrong as well. Yes, this conversation is pointless. However, since I have some free time, might as well waste it on pointless discussion that won't lead to anything and potentially might sour my or other people mood.

I don't even disagree. I just try to see other sides. My subjective opinion is mostly aligned with the viewpoint that stories were more compelling before, but you would probably be more critical of the modern 'gems' than I would.

 

[RepresentingPride]

So you prefer the virgin born in another world

jk but coming of age story pretty much require mc to start out at the lowest tier of existence

To be honest, it's more the part where the guys can't talk or do a thing when a girl approach him, like for real..... Please do something.

 

[BigBadBoi]

As others have said it's all rose tinted glasses. Garbage always existed in every era it just got filtered out because everyone only remember/archived the good ones. With the digital age it's easier to remember and archive the bad ones so they stick around longer. The only reason you're saying this is because japanese publishers keep on picking garbage isekai "slow life" harem powerfantasies to make into light novels that flop after a few volumes with some exceptions that survive long enough to get a subpar manga adaptation and maybe eventually get an anime. This has been happening way before with shitty battle academy harem powerfantasies instead of isekai.

That may be the case and it was just hard to notice but I feel like Hollywood started going downhill in the 2000s while the other felt like it happened around the 2010s.

Hollywood has always sucked they just suck more now since the investors don't want to risk making new IPs and are content with milking their old IPs so hard powdered milk comes out of their udders. Also the quality is also getting lower since they have to keep track of ESG scores and shit.

 

[Corty]

I agree with all of you that there were bad animes then as well. The difference I see is that back then it was a risk to produce an anime or manga that wasn't good. It's why shonen jump did so well because they have really high standards for stories. If a company made an anime in the 80s and 90s and it wasn't good then there was a good chance that that studio would go out of business soon. Now, companies are producing at a much higher rate, increasing the amount of bad animes and good animes without many negative consequences. There's just so much that it's hard to sort through to find the hidden gems.

I totally don’t feel that nor do I agree.

The risk is the same now as it was back then. Japan makes anime for Japan. The West is a bonus. Japan’s industry in this regard veered toward anime instead of the movie business. That is why voice acting is the same as being an actress there.

I studied this, how Japanese movies bombed, and how their whole industry moved from making movies to making animation.

What you may feel is the advancement of animation pipeline and how easier it is to produce shows. Does this produce more bad ones? Probably. But not because of the reasons you think in my opinion.

As I save almost 60-70% of every seasonal animes, in my opinion the ratio of good/bad shows remained the same as in the 2010s

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I don't even disagree. I just try to see other sides. My subjective opinion is mostly aligned with the viewpoint that stories were more compelling before, but you would probably be more critical of the modern 'gems' than I would.

Here is a single, very (how should I say this?) local example. You can simply look at manhwa Breaker. You can see how it developed and evolved, and compare the seasons. I won't talk about plot, simply compare the art. Season three looks worse than season two. The same aritst that had not one, but two works between those seasons to refine his craft actually started drawing worse.

Again, people who disagree with my point of view, OR people who like the new art will obviously refer to what I mentioned previously. You can't rate art, this is your bias, and so on. I won't change their opinions, and they can't change mine.

Back to the topic of comparing old and new. I see this difference not only in art, but also in plot. And I can see it not only in Breaker, but everywhere. The works are simply worse. On a side note, there is no increase of quality. Instead of going upward, artists and authors started moving sidewyas(and some move backwards).

 

[Deleted member 84247]

Here is a single, very (how should I say this?) local example. You can simply look at manhwa Breaker. You can see how it developed and evolved, and compare the seasons. I won't talk about plot, simply compare the art. Season three looks worse than season two. The same aritst that had not one, but two works between those seasons to refine his craft actually started drawing worse.

Again, people who disagree with my point of view, OR people who like the new art will obviously refer to what I mentioned previously. You can't rate art, this is your bias, and so on. I won't change their opinions, and they can't change mine.

Back to the topic of comparing old and new. I see this difference not only in art, but also in plot. And I can see it not only in Breaker, but everywhere. The works are simply worse. On a side note, there is no increase of quality. Instead of going upward, artists and authors started moving sidewyas(and some move backwards).

I am not really sure what to think, but if I compare it to the gaming industry, I think it would be similar. There are tons of monetization schemes in those, yet a gem is still able to rise up. The industry standard should be to make good anime, manga, or games, but most of the studios are focused on money. That being said, a few of them care about the quality of the product, and those always stand out, becoming a media sensation.

To name a few: Violet Evergarden, Attack on Titan, Oshi No Ko, and Jujutsu Kaisen. They became sensational exactly because they stood out from the other anime being produced at the same time. To draw a parallel with games, Elden Ring became a sensation because it also stood out from the current industry standards.

 

[Tsuru]

It's pretty apparent that western entertainment is struggling for various reasons including but not limited to, poor writing, bad production, and a moneycentric reasoning for creating rather than out of a desire to entertain. Recently, I've been seeing the exact same problems among anime, light novels, and manga and it's pretty sad. As a result, I have only enjoyed a few new productions that feel like they have heart while the rest feel forced, devoid of passion, and mainly for popularity and/or money. I get people need money and those in the industry are paid to create but it doesn't feel right. Early anime felt like it was being created because the people creating it wanted to, not because they were paid to. Now, I'm watching older anime, reading older LNs/manga, and enjoying it because it is actually good compared to the modern copy paste protagonist fantasy story. Don't get me wrong though, there is some good bangers in modern day but they are few and far between. I know this is the age old rant of "it isn't what it used to be when I was young" but when the modern stuff consists of repeatedly poorly written brainrot for the sake of a quick buck, it feels like I understand the rant. Hell, I found better writing in the Ugandan indie film industry than in most of what I see coming out of western and eastern entertainment today.

Is anyone else having this problem or is it just me? If you have a similar problem, what are your thoughts on it?

Correct

There wont be masterpieces like STEINS GATE anymore (though it was VN at first)
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For info, DESPITE gundam mercury being VERY GOOD
when i watched it
i truly felt "tiktok" vibe in it.
By that, i mean, it feels very empty around, and just try COMPACT the good content for "enjoyment" AND very fast. LIKE A FCKING FAST-FOOD.

If it was an old anime, gundam mercury, would have had like 4 seasons. Episodes to portray the side characters like

^Her past is totally skipped. Nothing is known about her. Old animes would have done like 4 episodes just to explain her story. Heck maybe a whole arc.

Also the "clone guy" that was "erased". I didnt even had time to warm up to him. BAM killed with a meh "urobochi butcher" trope not well done as he dies while she+he sing happy birthday song. Not even sad, not even surprised, not even disgusted of the death, not even empathy for suretta or him, just pure cringe.
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Bad news too even in chinese WNs also suffer the same fate. Partially.
Before : Despite a "mountain a shit" there were "few gems inside the shit".

Before : in a movie director chinese MC, when he plagia a movie, there was a MEGA AWESOME reaction-pov from spectators in like 2-5 chaps (max 8 in one novel)
Now its skipped into 1 chap or even just 1-3 paragraphs inside a chap.
Its bc tiktok gen-z, can't wait tomorrow to get new chapter OR probably will forget the series as they got 59958 other stuffs.

BUT GOOD NEWS, now its no longer mountain of shit, but mostly mountain of copper/iron, lot of gold, and shit a little everywhere. Some gems exist too.
But its near impossible to find new original ideas like [Soul Land = Douluo Dalu] or [Heavenly Jewel master]

Zhou Wei Qing, who was born in the Heavenly Bow Empire without a Power Jewel or Elemental Jewel, was treated as a joke. He is the son of the empire's Admiral Zhou who is a Nine Jeweled Heavenly Jewel Master.

An opportunity arose when he swallowed the Dark Demon Tiger God's Life Bead from another world. From then on, he embarked on a road of adventure, finding true love and finally becoming a Twelve Jeweled Heavenly Jewel Master!

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To make an analogy to conclude,
happy to get dozens of good restaurant around and fast foods, but sad as not having the good homemade pizzeria, or MILK ICECREAM of childhood.
(me living in a place that had them for a long while compared to other countries/cities)

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Last analogy :
Nowadays people now focus hard on MONEY.
why bother to do a LONG and hard-thought product, when you got BILLIONS OF TEENS that use wallets of parents?

Diablo 4
Payday 3
Assassin Creed Mirage

TRIO of "return to the source", that GAVE HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF $ of profits (diablo4 = 666m in 5days)

Despite being clearly a product OUTSOURCED to hundred of small unknown game studios.
Heck, with their quality, i would bet they paid like 500k to create them. With how buggy, lack of content they are.
Removing the names of their IPs inside them, they would be generic unknown garbages !
like "Diablo" "demons/angels" "lillith" "nephalem" etc, IF REMOVED, look like a trash fantasy HACK-AND-SLASH with shit late game.
Also [CUTSCENES] : YOUR CHARACTER IS IN IT ! wooooooow. MY ASS. They just didn't want to pay the MILLION(S) $ FOR THE CG like the opening of HEART OF THE SWARM. Even a 3d chinese studio could do better than what they did for this supposed cutscenes.

Could even bet they truly hired chinese studios. Because LIZZARD have history of collaboration with chinese market/staff. With how they collaborated for the product DIABLO IMMORAL, which was p2w just like P2W KOREAN mobile games.
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PS : sad that any good current JP DRAWING => [GO CHECK FANTIA ! TO GET THE REST ! ]

 

[owotrucked]

You can simply look at manhwa Breaker. You can see how it developed and evolved, and compare the seasons. I won't talk about plot, simply compare the art. Season three looks worse than season two. The same aritst that had not one, but two works between those seasons to refine his craft actually started drawing worse.

Artist learnt to focus on the most important things

There are many trend in an artist career. Take Berserk's author, his initial art sucked ass, but as time progressed, he put more and more effort into the art as his work grew in importance and success. Likewise, the author of Angel Densetsu and Claymore sucked as art but he grew incredibly OP with his amazingly successful works.

Then there are other artist who started with amazing art quality and progressively dropped as their work became less popular. I'm pretty sure that The Breaker's author was disappointed of season 2 reception and decided that he should take it easy for season 3.

It's the same for me, I tried to make a visual novel, but it didn't feel as entertaining as my more relaxed shitpost, so I went back to having fun with light scribbles.

Honestly, I always thought that artists (like Berserk's author), who spend so much time on comic strip art that reader spend two second maximum watching and never coming back to, were incredibly masochistic.

Stories can be entertaining even with One punch man's original doodle art

In conclusion, art can't carries stories. It's always plot, pacing, writing, etc, first. And the art quality is akin to grammar, a luxurious enhancing flavor.

 

[Corty]

@Paul_Tromba

Warning. Rant incoming.​

Here is another thought that popped into my head.

The romance genre. Or any romance in anime/manga. For decades it was utter shit, in my humble (but not humble) opinion. The sheer amount of blue balling and spineless, nosebleeding fuckfaces in stories was astronomically high. I can't recall without PTSD mouth foaming how many shows were fucked by the simple fact the hero had no backbone to bone the heroines.

Instead, we got what? Pointless, impotent harems where never happened anything, never blossomed a real relationship, it was nothing but "oooh, I saw her panties" or "ooo we touched hands now she is pregenenant." I loathed these tropes. SAO included; that is why only the first season exists for me. The rest is garbage, Mcdonalds level toilet escapee.

At least in the past few years, I am seeing the shedding of the "let's please virgin otakus who keep anime figures in cum jars" mindset, and finally, we are getting stories with this bullshit left at the door. Finally, there are romance stories worthy of watch. Finally, there are harem stories where the girls are not just blowup dolls that the limp dick MC never touches.

I say we are getting out of the bad years and into the good years. The 2010s were not my favorite, to be honest, especially when god damn K-on! Kicked the door in with the stomach-turning ultra moe thing in 2009. I got diabetes just watching that and all the copycats after.

Rant over.​

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I am not really sure what to think, but if I compare it to the gaming industry, I think it would be similar. There are tons of monetization schemes in those, yet a gem is still able to rise up. The industry standard should be to make good anime, manga, or games, but most of the studios are focused on money. That being said, a few of them care about the quality of the product, and those always stand out, becoming a media sensation.

To name a few: Violet Evergarden, Attack on Titan, Oshi No Ko, and Jujutsu Kaisen. They became sensational exactly because they stood out from the other anime being produced at the same time. To draw a parallel with games, Elden Ring became a sensation because it also stood out from the current industry standards.

As I said before, if previously 9\10 was considered a gem, now I have to refer to 6\10 as a gem. I can even agree that the number of those 6\10 works is lot more than previously, sure. This is how you get the "on average" works now and then are of the same quality. But I prefer the old ways of reading trash and 9\10 works than a bunch of mediocrity.

 

[Deleted member 84247]

As I said before, if previously 9\10 was considered a gem, now I have to refer to 6\10 as a gem. I can even agree that the number of those 6\10 works is lot more than previously, sure. This is how you get the "on average" works now and then are of the same quality. But I prefer the old ways of reading trash and 9\10 works than a bunch of mediocrity.

That makes sense. I understand your side. There was something fun about reading through the old trash, or trying to find a good anime. It makes me nostalgic thinking about the bad anime/manga I invested time in. Some of them were even so bad as to make me laugh.

 

[J_Chemist]

It all started with the Gorilla...

More seriously- Yes. I've also noticed the downward trend. Though, it shouldn't come as a surprise. The entertainment industry is just that- an industry. Like any other industry, it's purpose of existence is consumption. The more that is consumed, the more profit that is made. Companies will always chase that profit margin, as they should and it's not something I blame them for. However, you are also correct in that the shift from care and TLC to rapid production of what feels like "heartless" series' is real.

"It's been done before" is a massive theme that companies are now struggling to overcome. When the initial animation boom happened and Japan's economy blew up, artists, writers/authors, and animators all came together ot bring us fantastic stories that were new, vibrant, and exciting. Their plotlines were engaging and diverse and we loved them for it-

-because we'd never seen them. Sure, we may have read them in regular books but it was another thing to see your favorite story be turned into a comic book/graphic novel/manga or even into an anime/movie. It was exciting because we could increase our consumption of media and the diversity allowed us to enjoy our favorite things in a plethora of ways.

But, that was twenty if not thirty years ago. Every season, companies are chasing that black line. The profit line. They gear their output media to what is currently most being taken in by the consumer, whatever that may be. And those profitable series are given priority. Hence you see a lot of copy-paste in terms of plot and character tropes across all forms of media these days. It's because that's what your average/typical person wants to read/see. For us old fucks, we want the TLC and the depth to the series. It's not terribly difficult to find but you may find yourself having to adjust your taste to fit the new market. Or, like you are already, continue to dig up oldies because that's where most of the effort was left behind.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Artist learnt to focus on the most important things

Yeah, this is what I mentioned. You think the art if okay, I think artist has regressed. And I can't see him improving in any way or form.

There are many trend in an artist career. Take Berserk's author, his initial art sucked ass, but as time progressed, he put more and more effort into the art as his work grew in importance and success. Likewise, the author of Angel Densetsu and Claymore sucked as art but he grew incredibly OP with his amazingly successful works.

I wanted to mention this myself. I actually prefer it when the art sucks at the beginning, but gets better in the later chapters. Take Air Gear that we talked about in a different thread. The way Ogure Ito's art evolved always make me super hyped and happy, same for other artists.

Then there are other artist who started with amazing art quality and progressively dropped as their work became less popular. I'm pretty sure that The Breaker's author was disappointed of season 2 reception and decided that he should take it easy for season 3.

Why should I care about it? I'm always on a side of a consumer. I don't care for his reason. Give me better art. If not I will drop your work. And if you will mention that it won't affect him, breaker is actually the only manhwa that I physically own. He lost my money.

Stories can be entertaining even with One punch man's original doodle art

I agree with this.

In conclusion, art can't carries stories. It's always plot, pacing, writing, etc, first. And the art quality is akin to grammar, a luxurious enhancing flavor.

Wrong. Solo Leveling exists. And a lot of other stories exist.

Anyway, what I want to say is, I can enjoy bad art. I can even enjoy if the art stays bad. I have no qualms with it. I enjoyed OPM doodle art. What I was talking about there is how I don't enjoy when the artist regress. Above was an example of VISUAL regression. You can't see the plot worsening. You have to actually read works, and compare them. And even then, you can disagree.

 

[georgelee5786]

I agree, but in a larger scope. I think this applies to eastern and western writing and entertainment as a whole. Not nearly as many people write a story or make a show for the fun of it, rather for the money. Passion is dying

 

[Representing_Tromba]

I agree, but in a larger scope. I think this applies to eastern and western writing and entertainment as a whole. Not nearly as many people write a story or make a show for the fun of it, rather for the money. Passion is dying

I don't disagree but what are we doing then?