Draft idea 2: Weird player of the card academy.

[Arch9CivilReactor]

This is an extension of Draft Idea 1. The premise is that the MC has awakened with Card Abilities at birth in a family that doesn’t see this as being strange. At an early age, the ‘Final Boss’ analyses his ability and improved the original power system he’d introduce at the Academy.

In this new power system, the weapon-based system of a ‘Life Seal’ being planted into weapon is instead turned into a ‘Life Card’ that records the user’s status and health. It holds their ‘Magic Talent’ is fuels the other cards.

There is a limit to some cards that can be carried and of a respective type. Some, like the ‘Nether Card’, ‘Imaginary Card’, ‘Summon Card’, and the most important ‘Innate Cards’ that can be placed into the Life Card. All these things can be gained from achievement points and sufficient rank. The latter limit is 5. Nether Cards cannot be attained unless reaching a sufficient rank, and so are Imaginary Cards.

• Innate Cards (5)
• Nether Card (1)
• Summon Card (1)
• Imaginary Card (1)
• Skill Cards (40)
• Equip Cards (40^)
• Material Cards (Unlimited)

‘Innate Cards’ can range from already possessed techniques, unique abilities, and traits specific to each user. They must not have opposing natures to each other (like water and fire) and cannot be improved using ‘Skill Cards’. They are all unique.

Those who awaken their ‘Life Card’ using the academy’s guidance are given a choice between the ‘Class’ they choose. This will have a deep impact on their future growth. Those who choose a Class are given two Innate Cards.

The most important aspect is ‘Loadouts’.

You can choose to keep some of your abilities inactive and wait until a good ‘synergy’ appears later on, but the academy’s emphasis on earning points to stay there could cause students to lose their lives. They are essentially weaker than initially entering the academy on Year 1.

That’s why the academy hopes students will fill out each other’s weaknesses and aim towards achievable goals.

1. Pathfinder (They are the scout and reconnaissance unit.They find the routes.)
   • They relay Data to Flag Bearers.
2. Flag Bearer (Buffer and control type. They keep track of the entire battlefield and strategise.)
3. Flow Shifter (The main executer of strategies that has a variety of skills to suite the scene.)
4. Breaker (DPS who simply hits hard and acts as a tank. Used for distractions or as main dealer.)
5. Marksman (Ranged dealer that hits vitals.)

These are the ‘roles’ students can specialise in. Their individual ranks can help them participate in ‘special mission’ given by teachers. Roles also help clarify the nature of abilities, since there are so many different people entering the academy.

Like I said before, the main focus is ‘Loadouts’ with Skill/Equip Cards being versatile. The former is consumable while the latter takes skill to learn and master. It’s also possible to create your own weapons that have unique traits upon use.

You cannot switch your ‘Loadout’ without sufficient time, and you cannot excel at everything due to the card limit. Even using martial arts has an upper limit without relevant Innate Cards to boost them beyond the norm.

This is the current draft idea I’ve got.

What do you guys think? See any problems that could arise from inconsistency?

 

[Tyranomaster]

Why cards, though?

I've always been fascinated by, and tried to read many stories who classified themselves as "deckbuilders" or "cardgame", but when they use that tag, and the cards have no purpose, and could just be skill orbs, or some other thing, I down rate them. It's not a card game, it's an ability collection.

Cards come with certain connotations associated with them. A singular informational card (like a business card, or id card) is fine. When you start calling everything a card though, my question becomes, why are they cards? Sometimes, there are good reasons (it's a flat storage of something magical which could be stolen, for instance). Skill trees, maximum levels, skill orbs are all other systems.

If this is supposed to be a card game, next, ask yourself why it is one. The Yu-Gi-Oh tv show actually works just as well if they're playing any game, not just Yu-Gi-Oh (the og manga has plenty of this). If it is a cardgame specifically, and you want to attract card game fans, then ask yourself, if this cardgame could exist or not (even as a videogame) and is it understandable and balanced (to a certain degree).

If it could exist IRL, then you should probably actually make a card game, rather than a story about card games. The reason a story about a cardgame works is because the game itself wouldn't work irl. Yu-Gi-Oh again proves this. The real Yu-Gi-Oh game is vastly different with far different mechanics from the show (the real card game consists of winning or losing in your first two turns at most). What mechanics go in to making cards? How do cards affect reality? How do you draw cards? What chances are involved? How are cards limited in their use? These are questions that need answered.

If the game isn't somewhat balanced, then almost every single card based story turns into greed simulator where everyone just wants the super powerful cards, and you get some strict hiarchy around them. (Which is where real Yu-Gi-Oh basically is now, the tv shows only worked because the meta universe used underpowered decks).

In short, your description you gave makes me believe that the system is over-convoluted, while also under utilizing aspects that justify being that complicated.

To reiterate, why cards?

 

[Arch9CivilReactor]

Why cards, though?

I've always been fascinated by, and tried to read many stories who classified themselves as "deckbuilders" or "cardgame", but when they use that tag, and the cards have no purpose, and could just be skill orbs, or some other thing, I down rate them. It's not a card game, it's an ability collection.

Cards come with certain connotations associated with them. A singular informational card (like a business card, or id card) is fine. When you start calling everything a card though, my question becomes, why are they cards? Sometimes, there are good reasons (it's a flat storage of something magical which could be stolen, for instance). Skill trees, maximum levels, skill orbs are all other systems.

If this is supposed to be a card game, next, ask yourself why it is one. The Yu-Gi-Oh tv show actually works just as well if they're playing any game, not just Yu-Gi-Oh (the og manga has plenty of this). If it is a cardgame specifically, and you want to attract card game fans, then ask yourself, if this cardgame could exist or not (even as a videogame) and is it understandable and balanced (to a certain degree).

If it could exist IRL, then you should probably actually make a card game, rather than a story about card games. The reason a story about a cardgame works is because the game itself wouldn't work irl. Yu-Gi-Oh again proves this. The real Yu-Gi-Oh game is vastly different with far different mechanics from the show (the real card game consists of winning or losing in your first two turns at most). What mechanics go in to making cards? How do cards affect reality? How do you draw cards? What chances are involved? How are cards limited in their use? These are questions that need answered.

If the game isn't somewhat balanced, then almost every single card based story turns into greed simulator where everyone just wants the super powerful cards, and you get some strict hiarchy around them. (Which is where real Yu-Gi-Oh basically is now, the tv shows only worked because the meta universe used underpowered decks).

In short, your description you gave makes me believe that the system is over-convoluted, while also under utilizing aspects that justify being that complicated.

To reiterate, why cards?

I’ve realised from your explanation that I might need to work on making this less like an “ability” story and more “card” focused. Gotta slightly tweak a few things to fit this new imagination in my head. Thank you for sharing this valuable insight.

To answer a few question:

Why cards? Because it is really cool. I liked the image of Duelists in YuGiOh having these specific loadouts they’d always use. Tho I’m taking inspiration from fantasy stories that used game mechanics like Bakugan instead of solely thinking of YuGiOh specifically. My mind is always thinking of how incidents like ‘stealing cards’, ‘evil cards possessing user’, etc. The card aspect making them more vulnerable.

is it a card-game story? Not really. The card aspect was introduced specifically by the ‘school principal’, and isn’t a game. Moreover, there will be few times students will battle each other. It isn’t like Duel Academy in YuGiOh where everything is focused on the ‘card game’, as events are in motion that will sometimes force students to combine their efforts.

The explanation into the ENTIRE system in this post is likely what’s giving that convoluted feeling. Early on, there is no one using Summon Cards, Skill Cards, Equip Cards, Imaginary Cards, and especially Nether Cards (since a certain rank is required to obtain this weapon).

Early on, the students have their abilities limited to five at a time and have to come up with how they’re going to use it. Fusing cards, trading cards, and gifting cards are a thing in this story (with the MC, being a TCG player, knowing how easy it is to fall for ‘traps’ when trading).

That’s how I’m imagining it anyway.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

If this is supposed to be a card game, next, ask yourself why it is one. The Yu-Gi-Oh tv show actually works just as well if they're playing any game, not just Yu-Gi-Oh (the og manga has plenty of this). If it is a cardgame specifically, and you want to attract card game fans, then ask yourself, if this cardgame could exist or not (even as a videogame) and is it understandable and balanced (to a certain degree).

If it could exist IRL, then you should probably actually make a card game, rather than a story about card games. The reason a story about a cardgame works is because the game itself wouldn't work irl. Yu-Gi-Oh again proves this. The real Yu-Gi-Oh game is vastly different with far different mechanics from the show (the real card game consists of winning or losing in your first two turns at most). What mechanics go in to making cards? How do cards affect reality? How do you draw cards? What chances are involved? How are cards limited in their use? These are questions that need answered.

Actually talked to a guy who knew one of the creators of Yu-Gi-Oh. Originally, the manga was meant as a parody of Pokemon, but they used creatures bound to cards instead of trapped in orbs. It sold so well, they wrote subsequent issues to parody other types of manga, and when it was optioned for anime, they were also approached to make a card game for it. Took them longer to come up with the playable game than it did to write the first six or so issues.

Incidentally, I have seen cards used in a few other ways:

1. The Role-playing game Deadlands required spellcasters to defeat creatures called "Manitou" with poker hands to cast spells (the more powerful the spell the more advantages the manitou got, like extra cards, free redraws, while the PC only had his gambling skill and standard draws to rely on).

2. The Fatexxx or xxxFate series of anime (may be manga as well?) had cards used to summon the Grail Knights who would battle to obtain the Holy Grail (and most were based loosely on history or folklore).

3. I have also seen games and comics with cards used to represent various elements for spell casting - the way you combine them determines the outcome, and people with more cards have more options or more power than those with fewer (multiples of the same one double that aspect). These are usually five-element systems (either based on the Japanese Neutral/Fire/Air/Water/Metal or the Chinese Wood/Fire/Water/Air/Metal for suits) with cards depicting various ways to use the elements.

4. And then there was the method used on some of TSR's old Ravenloft products - at some point a fortune telling event transpires and the cards drawn determine (as a prophecy) what plot elements are located where, what the villain's actual goal is, and at least one aspect of that goal that the players might be able to exploit.

 

[Tyranomaster]

I’ve realised from your explanation that I might need to work on making this less like an “ability” story and more “card” focused. Gotta slightly tweak a few things to fit this new imagination in my head. Thank you for sharing this valuable insight.

To answer a few question:

Why cards? Because it is really cool. I liked the image of Duelists in YuGiOh having these specific loadouts they’d always use. Tho I’m taking inspiration from fantasy stories that used game mechanics like Bakugan instead of solely thinking of YuGiOh specifically. My mind is always thinking of how incidents like ‘stealing cards’, ‘evil cards possessing user’, etc. The card aspect making them more vulnerable.

is it a card-game story? Not really. The card aspect was introduced specifically by the ‘school principal’, and isn’t a game. Moreover, there will be few times students will battle each other. It isn’t like Duel Academy in YuGiOh where everything is focused on the ‘card game’, as events are in motion that will sometimes force students to combine their efforts.

The explanation into the ENTIRE system in this post is likely what’s giving that convoluted feeling. Early on, there is no one using Summon Cards, Skill Cards, Equip Cards, Imaginary Cards, and especially Nether Cards (since a certain rank is required to obtain this weapon).

Early on, the students have their abilities limited to five at a time and have to come up with how they’re going to use it. Fusing cards, trading cards, and gifting cards are a thing in this story (with the MC, being a TCG player, knowing how easy it is to fall for ‘traps’ when trading).

That’s how I’m imagining it anyway.

Then I advise caution in your approach. In essence, you don't want readers to become frustrated by the nature of the story. You are, in essence, making a written story about a local trading club league. In real life, if you were watching a local magic the gathering tournament and you watched people make bad moves or trades, you'd think, "I could do better", and then actually go and buy cards or play the game. However, readers are forced to experience the game vicariously with no access to the cards. I can't think of a good webnovel that actually does this effectively. In essence, the card game needs to ONLY work within the realm of the story, such that a person in our world has no option to be frustrated by bad gameplay, because the world itself forced that gameplay.

This usually means that the cards themselves aren't all powerful, but are just one aspect of the overall story mechanics. In hearthstone, you have different heroes, in magic, you have dedicated mana types. I think a viable way to implement this story driven limitation would be something along the lines of each person having their own "innate" ability or abilities. If, for instance, someone had an ability to cast a fireball innately, their deck would likely be focused around improving this innate ability, so they inherently would build a different style of deck to someone who had powerful punches innately, so there can be mutually beneficial trades without any preference to use a more powerful archetype.

In the Yu-Gi-Oh tv show, people would theme there decks around a particular design. They didn't need to, but their personality dictated it. In essence, you want that sort of limitation, though you end up walking into parody territory if you focus it entirely around personality, because you'll end up with characters that are one dimensional around their obsession with a particular kind of effect, rather than improving as a whole. Yu-Gi-Oh characters are parodies of an archetype. The bug collector runs a bug deck, the dinosaur kid uses dinosaurs. The powerful enemy uses powerful cards.

As a kid, I loved Yu-Gi-Oh. As an adult who now has a decent grasp of the big 4 tcgs and has played hundreds of games of each (Hearthstone, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and pokemon TCG), I can basically only watch Yu-Gi-Oh abridged because its too cringe to watch normal Yu-Gi-Oh.

Everything has an exception in writing though, so your story could potentially work as is, and I hope it does because I've always been craving a good card based novel, however, I still think caution is advised.

As a point of reference, my next planned novel is a card game based story, so I obviously have biases in how things should work. I've been bouncing around the idea and fine tuning things for over a year now, so I've been thinking about these issues a lot. In essence, no novel has handled card games in a way that was satisfying to me, and so I started workshopping my own.

Questions to ask yourself are:
Are there multiple copies of cards, or is every card unique?
If there are copies, why are there copies, if every card is unique, what does that mean?
Does deckbuilding play any role?
Are all cards just active at all times, or is there some form of draw mechanic?
If all cards are active all the time, then what prevents there from just being a singular "best" deck?

 

[Sergeandgreen]

In this new power system, the weapon-based system of a ‘Life Seal’ being planted into weapon is instead turned into a ‘Life Card’ that records the user’s status and health. It holds their ‘Magic Talent’ is fuels the other cards.

Sounds like a system with extra steps.
Is that intended?

 

[Arch9CivilReactor]

Then I advise caution in your approach. In essence, you don't want readers to become frustrated by the nature of the story. You are, in essence, making a written story about a local trading club league. In real life, if you were watching a local magic the gathering tournament and you watched people make bad moves or trades, you'd think, "I could do better", and then actually go and buy cards or play the game. However, readers are forced to experience the game vicariously with no access to the cards. I can't think of a good webnovel that actually does this effectively. In essence, the card game needs to ONLY work within the realm of the story, such that a person in our world has no option to be frustrated by bad gameplay, because the world itself forced that gameplay.

This usually means that the cards themselves aren't all powerful, but are just one aspect of the overall story mechanics. In hearthstone, you have different heroes, in magic, you have dedicated mana types. I think a viable way to implement this story driven limitation would be something along the lines of each person having their own "innate" ability or abilities. If, for instance, someone had an ability to cast a fireball innately, their deck would likely be focused around improving this innate ability, so they inherently would build a different style of deck to someone who had powerful punches innately, so there can be mutually beneficial trades without any preference to use a more powerful archetype.

In the Yu-Gi-Oh tv show, people would theme there decks around a particular design. They didn't need to, but their personality dictated it. In essence, you want that sort of limitation, though you end up walking into parody territory if you focus it entirely around personality, because you'll end up with characters that are one dimensional around their obsession with a particular kind of effect, rather than improving as a whole. Yu-Gi-Oh characters are parodies of an archetype. The bug collector runs a bug deck, the dinosaur kid uses dinosaurs. The powerful enemy uses powerful cards.

As a kid, I loved Yu-Gi-Oh. As an adult who now has a decent grasp of the big 4 tcgs and has played hundreds of games of each (Hearthstone, Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and pokemon TCG), I can basically only watch Yu-Gi-Oh abridged because its too cringe to watch normal Yu-Gi-Oh.

Everything has an exception in writing though, so your story could potentially work as is, and I hope it does because I've always been craving a good card based novel, however, I still think caution is advised.

As a point of reference, my next planned novel is a card game based story, so I obviously have biases in how things should work. I've been bouncing around the idea and fine tuning things for over a year now, so I've been thinking about these issues a lot. In essence, no novel has handled card games in a way that was satisfying to me, and so I started workshopping my own.

Questions to ask yourself are:
Are there multiple copies of cards, or is every card unique?
If there are copies, why are there copies, if every card is unique, what does that mean?
Does deckbuilding play any role?
Are all cards just active at all times, or is there some form of draw mechanic?
If all cards are active all the time, then what prevents there from just being a singular "best" deck?

Like I said before, this isn’t a ‘game’. The card aspect is to turn ‘abilities’ into ‘possessions’. Even their lives can be stolen if their Life Card is stolen. As for the uniqueness of build… Well, I can say you’ve inspired me with what you said.

A change I’m thinking of implementing is that those who don’t have a specific bloodline can pick any two abilities, but will be weaker than those who have chosen a ‘Class’. What I’m going to focus on in this story is how there are so many ways these ‘possessions’ can be corrupted or made useless.

Also, everyone comes to the academy with their own skills and don’t show each other their cards. Only when trading do they open up.

Sounds like a system with extra steps.
Is that intended?

It’s supposed to feel like the ‘school principal’ was the one who made it, so there are parts of it that specifically require the academy’s guidance and permission for use.

 

[Tyranomaster]

It’s supposed to feel like the ‘school principal’ was the one who made it, so there are parts of it that specifically require the academy’s guidance and permission for use.

I have no idea what this means. If the school principle using some other magic outside of cards to turn people's abilities into cards? Are cards not innate to the world itself? Is this just a trading card thing with no magic involved at all, if so, why? This single line is incredibly confusing.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

I have no idea what this means. If the school principle using some other magic outside of cards to turn people's abilities into cards? Are cards not innate to the world itself? Is this just a trading card thing with no magic involved at all, if so, why? This single line is incredibly confusing.

From what else I've read here it SOUNDS LIKE the main villain forced a restructuring of magic on the world and did it in the form of Cards. The Principal, acting as the Big Bad's agent or proxy, maintains the illusion that he developed the system and that the academy exists, at least in part, to hone and control peoples' access to it.

I THINK. I may be way off base here but that is the impression I've gotten on the three (I think) threads about this story concept.

 

[Arch9CivilReactor]

I have no idea what this means. If the school principle using some other magic outside of cards to turn people's abilities into cards? Are cards not innate to the world itself? Is this just a trading card thing with no magic involved at all, if so, why? This single line is incredibly confusing.

“This is an extension of Draft Idea 1. The premise is that the MC has awakened with Card Abilities at birth in a family that doesn’t see this as being strange. At an early age, the ‘Final Boss’ analyses his ability and improved the original power system he’d introduce at the Academy.”

An extension of this first paragraph is that the card ability was at first innate to the MC, then plagiarised. The setting is a military academy that requires students to grow their achievement points. The principal wants to improve the strength of humanity, thus this is his second time changing the magic system via an academy.

From what else I've read here it SOUNDS LIKE the main villain forced a restructuring of magic on the world and did it in the form of Cards. The Principal, acting as the Big Bad's agent or proxy, maintains the illusion that he developed the system and that the academy exists, at least in part, to hone and control peoples' access to it.

I THINK. I may be way off base here but that is the impression I've gotten on the three (I think) threads about this story concept.

Yeah. The final boss isn’t known to be a bad guy in society (only the MC knows he eventually reveals his true nature). The reason for him being a villain is something even the MC doesn’t know (was not explained in the original work).

 

[Tyranomaster]

The story had better be very compelling then, because you're essentially using up all your suspension of disbelief and reader complexity allowance on this system. You're very likely going to have a hard time making the story compelling for the duration.

Basically, as far as I can tell, it's needlessly overcomplicated. Does the big bad need to plagiarise? Couldn't the world just use the card system innately, and the bad guy still does what he plans to do?

If not, that's fine, I can envision at least one overarching plot where that would be the case, but there are going to be a lot of world building implications that will absolutely prevent it from being a twist reveal.

If you told me "Some guy turned everyone's powers into trading cards, but don't worry, it's for society's benefit, and our protagonist has innate card powers." It's very obvious that the cards are central to the plot, and we should be suspicious of anyone who does anything with regulating or creating them.