Controversial Opinion: Action/Adventure LitRPGs and System novels inherently handicap themselves in the long run for short term success.

[ElijahRyne]

LitRPGs and System novels inherently handicap themselves in the long run for short term success. Of course with good writing a lot of this can be somewhat alleviated, but not solved without drastic change. How/why?

1. It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by killing the stakes.

Spoiler: ‘1‘

It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by kill the stakes. Fights typically have very little suspense, if any at all. When reading a litRPG the only stakes in a fight is death or losing a reward, because if the character in question were to just wait and grind out levels then they would win practically any encounter. Then when fights are won, the character(s) will gain so many levels that redoing the fight would be significantly easier. These lead to a gradual power creep that will kill the stakes, start by saving a person, then a city, and next thing you know you have to save the world to keep the stakes balanced, eventually though the expansion becomes ridiculous. Skills are not things learned through practice, trial and error, but gifts granted from above. Fight scenes are narrowed down to skills and cooldowns which just results in the names of the attacks being thrown out as a description of what is happening + the location of the combatants, interspersed with dialogue. Creating both boring and repetitive fights. Of course these issues can be relived, to some extent, by carefully planning the rules of the system, and good and careful handling of the fight scenes, but that doesn’t solve the issue. That being, to alleviate these issues you must remove features expected from a litRPG.

To alleviate the skill dynamic, to learn a skill one must actually learn it. Nothing, or almost nothing, is given it is earned directly through practice. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.To alleviate the stake issue you can either limit remove leveling. Doing the first needs to be more than lower experience gain, and must be something similar to a level cap. This will lead to a human limit that should not be broke, because if it is that results in the same issue this fix was made for. So instead you could remove leveling as a way to gain strength of any sort. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system. To alleviate the fight issue, you need unique and numerous enemies as well as unique applications of each skill. This removes the slimes, goblins, etc. as long as they don’t have something unique to each encounter. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.

2. Places throughout the adventure are no longer unique because of the characters and/histories that inhabit them, but because of how they relate to the system. Ruins of an Ancient City? This is a dungeon, the only important things here are is the ease of leveling and the valuable objects hidden. Town by the River? Assuming it isn’t being used for a temporary place to sleep, it is a stop to solve the issues of the inhabitants. Not a place with unique individuals and history.

3. Rule of the Jungle. Systems give incredible power to those lucky enough to be able to use it. Unfortunately the nature of it is endless competition and the centering of society around the strong. This just flat out ignores human kindness and mutual aid. This can be solved in a similar manor to 1.

4. (Expansion of 1&2) The story becomes an endless repetition of fetch quests and grinding with a handful of important fights. Since the only way to improve is through stats and the system, then you must find ways to do so. It is just that you must find item a, kill 100 creatures, and/or create a sword to do so. Unless of course you remove stats from being tied to the system.


So what do you gain?
1. An intuitive, somewhat flexible, and easy power system for both readers and for the author.
2. Something popular to game the algorithm and gain readers.
3. A predetermined route of progress.
4. Quick improvement for characters.

All of these are good for the first arc or two, but the issues further above will slowly drown out these gains. Since we typically create serialized works with no near by ending, there is also more than enough time for these flaws to become evident. If you are writing a long term action and/or adventure, I recommend not doing a litRPG. But, this is just my opinion what is yours? Do you disagre, agree, or somewhere in between, and why?

 

[Cipiteca396]

Anything can be good or bad. Write what you want, it won't change the quality of the story.

 

[Corty]

Trends come and go. One who couldn’t write an interesting LitRPG won’t write an interesting normal fantasy either.

I think the “problem” is very simple. Many forget that the system is there to assist the story. And not to be the story itself.

you can work out a 9-level-deep ultra detailed system; if there is no story to support with it, the book falls flat on its face. And that is why many litrpg books are meh.

The author spends too much time on working the system and not the plot. Instead of bending the system to the story the story gets changed to fit the system.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

f you are writing a long term action and/or adventure, I recommend doing a litrpg because the money making potential is high and you can afford to learn tricks while making money if you're at a standard level of quality.

All new authors on here and royal road should start with litrpgs if they dont know what genre they're going for.

 

[LunaSoltaer]

f you are writing a long term action and/or adventure, I recommend doing a litrpg because the money making potential is high and you can afford to learn tricks while making money if you're at a standard level of quality.

All new authors on here and royal road should start with litrpgs if they dont know what genre they're going for.

This almost invites me to try my hand at system.

The only reason I haven't yet is I want to finish my one work first, but I may end up needing (really more like wanting) to raise some money in a pinch to help a friend out.

The main moral question for me is, would that count as selling out? On the one hand, yes because im targeting a popular genre early to generate revenue via tips/donations, but on the other hand, probably not because I had ideas for a system novel anyway.

 

[Corty]

@LunaSoltaer You have to be careful with @Sebas_Guzman ’s advice. That is a double edged sword and I would approach it with caution. But good luck.

 

[LunaSoltaer]

Thank you for the heads-up.

And agreed. Not a decision to be made lightly, certainly.

Allow me a moment to address anyone else considering these sorts of questions:

ALL DECISIONS INVOLVING WRITING AND FINANCE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED WITH THE GRAVITAS OF YOU AS A NOVEL PROTAGONIST APPROACHING YOUR OWN PERSONAL LITERARY CLIMAX.

Because, well, it really is a moment that changes and marks who you are as a character.

Art imitates life imitates art bears repeating, or something.

(But like serious talk if youre going to hop on a trend you had damn well better have an affinity to that trend or you will capsize. Please don't capsize.)

 

[Syringe]

This almost invites me to try my hand at system.

The only reason I haven't yet is I want to finish my one work first, but I may end up needing (really more like wanting) to raise some money in a pinch to help a friend out.

The main moral question for me is, would that count as selling out? On the one hand, yes because im targeting a popular genre early to generate revenue via tips/donations, but on the other hand, probably not because I had ideas for a system novel anyway.

I used to abhorrently hate litRPGs until I tried it, and it made writing super fun. Also didn't even know that some of my favourite media were litRPGs until I had a closer look. There's really no harm in doing it!

As for the main topic at hand - I don't think the issues you pointed out are solely found in litRPGs/System novels.

1. About stakes and rewards - You can find this in about any other story though. Of course a negative's going to be death. But let's not pretend death/losing a reward is the only kind of loss characters face in these novels. If they have partners/companions, then that's another kind of loss. Psychological loss? Physical loss?

I think you're looking at litRPGs at a suuuuuper narrow way thinking they're not at all flexible. At least for a 'good' litRPG, because I will admit, there's a lot of trash out there. But like the trash monster I am, I'm still gobbling it all up.

2. Again, you're thinking of everything relating to the System. It's not really the System's fault if a story couldn't even at least give some semblance of history/intrigue about a place other than "oooh, shiny new stuff.". At that point you really have to blame the author. And about the river example, I could not tell you how many times I've seen that exact same thing in non-litRPG novels. It's a plague you'll find everywhere.

3. Rule of Jungle. I agree in a sense, but I don't think 1. is what'll solve it. In that way, you make it look like litRPGs only has this issue. We've seen worlds like Kill La Kill, Akame Ga Kill (animes. Not novels, I know) that aren't litRPGs but have power hierarchies and societies that give no room for human kindness. In fantasy worlds with magic, the same concept is applicable. If someone/everyone can get stronger whether through magic/cultivation/mana/training/or even a system then you can bet that someone out there's trying to get stronger.

4. If a story can only expand/evolve in that manner, then usually those kind of stories (from what I've seen) tend to be on the lighthearted side and not to be taken seriously. More like a good feeling kind of story, but there are exceptions, like Solo Levelling and aloooot of Manhwas out there. Not all litRPGs fall for that trap, but I can see the appeal for it because it's, most importantly of all, easy for readers to consume.

5. For the last point, it really depends on an author's ability. For beginners, it can work pretty well, but I can see why people who already write non-litRPGs hate it (because I used to as well with a passion). As will all stories, repetition can't be blamed on a genre. It's the author whose coordinating the show for us. I have to heavily disagree with it being bad for long stories, but I understand why it can be bad especial when some have their power scales are going wacko within the literal first few chapters.

In conclusion, I guess you need to check out some higher quality litRPGs for a feel of their flexibility and continuity in the long run.

But I also tend to like trash, so my opinion here is probably as invalid as a landfill.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

LitRPGs and System novels inherently handicap themselves in the long run for short term success. Of course with good writing a lot of this can be somewhat alleviated, but not solved without drastic change. How/why?

1. It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by killing the stakes.

Spoiler: ‘1‘

It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by kill the stakes. Fights typically have very little suspense, if any at all. When reading a litRPG the only stakes in a fight is death or losing a reward, because if the character in question were to just wait and grind out levels then they would win practically any encounter. Then when fights are won, the character(s) will gain so many levels that redoing the fight would be significantly easier. These lead to a gradual power creep that will kill the stakes, start by saving a person, then a city, and next thing you know you have to save the world to keep the stakes balanced, eventually though the expansion becomes ridiculous. Skills are not things learned through practice, trial and error, but gifts granted from above. Fight scenes are narrowed down to skills and cooldowns which just results in the names of the attacks being thrown out as a description of what is happening + the location of the combatants, interspersed with dialogue. Creating both boring and repetitive fights. Of course these issues can be relived, to some extent, by carefully planning the rules of the system, and good and careful handling of the fight scenes, but that doesn’t solve the issue. That being, to alleviate these issues you must remove features expected from a litRPG.

To alleviate the skill dynamic, to learn a skill one must actually learn it. Nothing, or almost nothing, is given it is earned directly through practice. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.To alleviate the stake issue you can either limit remove leveling. Doing the first needs to be more than lower experience gain, and must be something similar to a level cap. This will lead to a human limit that should not be broke, because if it is that results in the same issue this fix was made for. So instead you could remove leveling as a way to gain strength of any sort. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system. To alleviate the fight issue, you need unique and numerous enemies as well as unique applications of each skill. This removes the slimes, goblins, etc. as long as they don’t have something unique to each encounter. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.

2. Places throughout the adventure are no longer unique because of the characters and/histories that inhabit them, but because of how they relate to the system. Ruins of an Ancient City? This is a dungeon, the only important things here are is the ease of leveling and the valuable objects hidden. Town by the River? Assuming it isn’t being used for a temporary place to sleep, it is a stop to solve the issues of the inhabitants. Not a place with unique individuals and history.

3. Rule of the Jungle. Systems give incredible power to those lucky enough to be able to use it. Unfortunately the nature of it is endless competition and the centering of society around the strong. This just flat out ignores human kindness and mutual aid. This can be solved in a similar manor to 1.

4. (Expansion of 1&2) The story becomes an endless repetition of fetch quests and grinding with a handful of important fights. Since the only way to improve is through stats and the system, then you must find ways to do so. It is just that you must find item a, kill 100 creatures, and/or create a sword to do so. Unless of course you remove stats from being tied to the system.


So what do you gain?
1. An intuitive, somewhat flexible, and easy power system for both readers and for the author.
2. Something popular to game the algorithm and gain readers.
3. A predetermined route of progress.
4. Quick improvement for characters.

All of these are good for the first arc or two, but the issues further above will slowly drown out these gains. Since we typically create serialized works with no near by ending, there is also more than enough time for these flaws to become evident. If you are writing a long term action and/or adventure, I recommend not doing a litRPG. But, this is just my opinion what is yours? Do you disagre, agree, or somewhere in between, and why?

No.

 

[Sabruness]

If i'm reading a litrpg, generally i'm not there for 'high stakes' and a literary masterpiece. i'm there for something simple, fun and lighthearted to read.

i dont know why you're critiquing a genre that's known mostly for being on the 'lighter' end of things as if it was 'highbrow' literature.

 

[LilRora]

Counterpoint: that handicap can be a good thing as it can be an easy and simple power system that works as a background for a story focusing on different things, such as psychological development or detailed plot.

With that said though, a sad thing is that most stories don't even do that. It's very hard to find a good balance between LitRPG elements and "real" elements in a story that doesn't put one or the other to the side, and most authors try to do both and fail. I personally made the same mistake and I intend to fix it in a rewrite.

 

[Sebas_Guzman]

This almost invites me to try my hand at system.

The only reason I haven't yet is I want to finish my one work first, but I may end up needing (really more like wanting) to raise some money in a pinch to help a friend out.

The main moral question for me is, would that count as selling out? On the one hand, yes because im targeting a popular genre early to generate revenue via tips/donations, but on the other hand, probably not because I had ideas for a system novel anyway.

I appreciate the caution, and yes, tread with caution buuuuut, what are you really risking by embarking on litrpg as a training ground? Really, your time. That's it. Just your time. Maybe credibility if you dont insulate yourself right.
Doing LitRpg is just practical on these platforms.
One, it gets attention, so you have less odds of not being found.
Two, because of the visibility, you'll find out very quickly if you're good or not because you'll get more feedback, faster, than if you do an off genre story. You can apply that feedback to other genres.

Now, this moral question, is not a moral question, because its been fluffed up by people who are bitter. Is it selling out when people work a job they hate because they need money? Person bagging your groceries? Person taking out the trash? The vast majority of people work for money. It makes no sense to penalize artists for also working for money. There's nothing wrong with creatives going where the money is. Now... if you start doing actually morally hazardous things, like betraying business partners, breaking promises, or smack talking others in your field, well. You're a dick. Otherwise, where's the moral hazard in... writing something thats only purpose is to entertain?

If you're serious about making money in writing, you have to go to market. The world's not going to bend around your efforts if you're making no effort to meet the world.

On a greater note, the LitRpg is the stepping stone to other works in this case, on these platforms. If someone was asking me what should there first book on amazon be, i would say romance or cozy mystery. Go learn that and its story arcs, write, study the market, match competitors and put it on sale. Why? Because even if it sucks, you have a greater chance of getting something in return for your efforts. Don't be those people on the selfpublishing subreddit who have sixteen books out and less than $500 in profit.

Disclaimer: If you're a genius, my advice doesnt apply. My advice is for the untalented and those trying to maximize gains while learning.
I'm also the type of person that writes 4000 to 6,000 words every day, so I'm a work horse. To some degree, my advice works for those who force it to work. As I said in the first post, you need a standard level of quality.

 

[Cipiteca396]

I appreciate the caution, and yes, tread with caution buuuuut, what are you really risking by embarking on litrpg as a training ground? Really, your time. That's it. Just your time. Maybe credibility if you dont insulate yourself right.
Doing LitRpg is just practical on these platforms.
One, it gets attention, so you have less odds of not being found.
Two, because of the visibility, you'll find out very quickly if you're good or not because you'll get more feedback, faster, than if you do an off genre story. You can apply that feedback to other genres.

Now, this moral question, is not a moral question, because its been fluffed up by people who are bitter. Is it selling out when people work a job they hate because they need money? Person bagging your groceries? Person taking out the trash? The vast majority of people work for money. It makes no sense to penalize artists for also working for money. There's nothing wrong with creatives going where the money is. Now... if you start doing actually morally hazardous things, like betraying business partners, breaking promises, or smack talking others in your field, well. You're a dick. Otherwise, where's the moral hazard in... writing something thats only purpose is to entertain?

If you're serious about making money in writing, you have to go to market. The world's not going to bend around your efforts if you're making no effort to meet the world.

On a greater note, the LitRpg is the stepping stone to other works in this case, on these platforms. If someone was asking me what should there first book on amazon be, i would say romance or cozy mystery. Go learn that and its story arcs, write, study the market, match competitors and put it on sale. Why? Because even if it sucks, you have a greater chance of getting something in return for your efforts. Don't be those people on the selfpublishing subreddit who have sixteen books out and less than $500 in profit.

Disclaimer: If you're a genius, my advice doesnt apply. My advice is for the untalented and those trying to maximize gains while learning.
I'm also the type of person that writes 4000 to 6,000 words every day, so I'm a work horse. To some degree, my advice works for those who force it to work. As I said in the first post, you need a standard level of quality.

My only complaint with this is that Fanfic is a better stepping stone for learning with. But you can't monetize fanfic, so it probably evens out which should be picked.

 

[LunaSoltaer]

Yeah that's always been a weird argument, with donations and all, since what you're paying for by donating to an author is... Absolutely Nothing. No seriously, if you donate to me and I suddenly stop writing, you have no recourse except to stop donating, and I have no way to force you to keep donating.

(Caveat: This model falls the fuck apart when you consider things like Early Chapter Access. Also, Luna Common Sense Logic does not necessarily exist in a court of law so dont expect my internet whining to save you. Cipiteca IS still practically correct: attaching money to fanfic is probably not something you should be doing.)

 

[aattss]

LitRPGs and System novels inherently handicap themselves in the long run for short term success. Of course with good writing a lot of this can be somewhat alleviated, but not solved without drastic change. How/why?

1. It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by killing the stakes.

Spoiler: ‘1‘

It hampers the action action in any series, by removing the difficulty of learning a skill and by kill the stakes. Fights typically have very little suspense, if any at all. When reading a litRPG the only stakes in a fight is death or losing a reward, because if the character in question were to just wait and grind out levels then they would win practically any encounter. Then when fights are won, the character(s) will gain so many levels that redoing the fight would be significantly easier. These lead to a gradual power creep that will kill the stakes, start by saving a person, then a city, and next thing you know you have to save the world to keep the stakes balanced, eventually though the expansion becomes ridiculous. Skills are not things learned through practice, trial and error, but gifts granted from above. Fight scenes are narrowed down to skills and cooldowns which just results in the names of the attacks being thrown out as a description of what is happening + the location of the combatants, interspersed with dialogue. Creating both boring and repetitive fights. Of course these issues can be relived, to some extent, by carefully planning the rules of the system, and good and careful handling of the fight scenes, but that doesn’t solve the issue. That being, to alleviate these issues you must remove features expected from a litRPG.

To alleviate the skill dynamic, to learn a skill one must actually learn it. Nothing, or almost nothing, is given it is earned directly through practice. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.To alleviate the stake issue you can either limit remove leveling. Doing the first needs to be more than lower experience gain, and must be something similar to a level cap. This will lead to a human limit that should not be broke, because if it is that results in the same issue this fix was made for. So instead you could remove leveling as a way to gain strength of any sort. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system. To alleviate the fight issue, you need unique and numerous enemies as well as unique applications of each skill. This removes the slimes, goblins, etc. as long as they don’t have something unique to each encounter. Thus removing a key aspect of the litRPG system.

2. Places throughout the adventure are no longer unique because of the characters and/histories that inhabit them, but because of how they relate to the system. Ruins of an Ancient City? This is a dungeon, the only important things here are is the ease of leveling and the valuable objects hidden. Town by the River? Assuming it isn’t being used for a temporary place to sleep, it is a stop to solve the issues of the inhabitants. Not a place with unique individuals and history.

3. Rule of the Jungle. Systems give incredible power to those lucky enough to be able to use it. Unfortunately the nature of it is endless competition and the centering of society around the strong. This just flat out ignores human kindness and mutual aid. This can be solved in a similar manor to 1.

4. (Expansion of 1&2) The story becomes an endless repetition of fetch quests and grinding with a handful of important fights. Since the only way to improve is through stats and the system, then you must find ways to do so. It is just that you must find item a, kill 100 creatures, and/or create a sword to do so. Unless of course you remove stats from being tied to the system.


So what do you gain?
1. An intuitive, somewhat flexible, and easy power system for both readers and for the author.
2. Something popular to game the algorithm and gain readers.
3. A predetermined route of progress.
4. Quick improvement for characters.

All of these are good for the first arc or two, but the issues further above will slowly drown out these gains. Since we typically create serialized works with no near by ending, there is also more than enough time for these flaws to become evident. If you are writing a long term action and/or adventure, I recommend not doing a litRPG. But, this is just my opinion what is yours? Do you disagre, agree, or somewhere in between, and why?

I think you conflate litRPGs for general progression tropes. And also seem to think that any non-standard power progression is "easy" or a "shortcut" or "simple" when that's more of a case by case thing for both litRPG stories and stories with other kinds of training or progression including authors describing how hard the MC trained intheir training montages.

 

[Kitty]

I like system novels when the system's quests aren't the primary driver of the plot. But I think it is true that for these sorts of novels, there often comes a point where the story gets way too repetitive, especially in the context of asian web novels that have literally thousands of chapters, so recycling the same underlying plot device gets boring fast.

 

[Largersz]

It's not about the lit-rpg itself and the system, it's about the terrible quality of the work they use. Most of them, alas, are mediocre. With frank MS and simplification of everything else. As a result, interest disappears. Which badly says more about the work as a whole than about the additional elements used.